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Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 10:19:37 AM
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SoulCrushed
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Does faith require that I believe that not only did Jesus forgive and remove my sin, but that he gave me his personal righteousness?
Given several passages such as 2 Cor. 5:21 and Rom. 1:17, I'm inclined to believe that it does.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 2:15:09 PM
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terryjohn
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It all depends on how you define righteousness and sin, for certainly, none of us would suggest that we have no sin. Sin here must be seen not as doing bad things but as unbelief for they are but results of unbelief. Righteousness also is not determined by good works for as we all know we are saved by faith and faith alone as it were. Hence, if we are not saved by good works, we are also not condemned by bad works either. It must be understood that without faith all the works of men are sins not because they are good or bad but simply because they are not accompanied by faith. You could then get two men doing the exact same things and only one is saved if only one has faith.
Nevertheless, unless our righteousness exceeds that of the unbelievers we certainly will not enter into the kingdom to come for we decieve ourselves in believing that our evil will be excused. If any man says he has the righteousness of Christ let him do as Christ did and if he cannot, he will surely know he does not have the righteousness of Christ.
In the end it is about acceptance not goodness. My son is not perfect and I love him not becasue he is, but because he is mine and not an others. He is my son and I am his father and nothing can change that.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 2:47:00 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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There is not universal agreement on this. Luther and Calvin, for example, insisted that this was at the heart of the doctrine of justification. Luther called this "the great exchange," that is, by faith we are united with Christ such that our sin is imputed to Him, and His righteousness is imputed to us. Finney, on the other hand, said that each person must be justified by his own righteousness. He believed that the doctrine of imputed righteousness was a myth. I think that Luther and Calvin, rather than Finney, got this one right.
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"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 3:37:12 PM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
Righteousness also is not determined by good works for as we all know we are saved by faith and faith alone as it were. Hence, if we are not saved by good works, we are also not condemned by bad works either.
With respect, I think you misunderstood my question. My central question is about faith and believing (specifically what we believe) so that in addition to believing that Jesus died for my sin, I also believe that by his death and resurrection he has also given me his works. That is…thorugh faith he takes my sin and gives me his righteousness.
Yes, our good works cannot save us, but Jesus’ good works did – so the question becomes does Jesus just wipe the slate clean and we start over so that by our own strength, hopefully, we don’t sin and continue to sin (I don’t believe this) or did he give us forgiveness and his righteousness when we began to believe on him?
< Message edited by SoulCrushed -- 11/6/2009 3:44:51 PM >
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 10:32:27 PM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
I think that Luther and Calvin, rather than Finney, got this one right.
Finney was pretty much a pelagian so....
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 11:24:20 PM
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mosess8
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I'm not sure if you can believe what you cannot yet understand. Some of those greater mysteries are understood better by way of the Holy Spirit. If you believe the Gospel message itis enough for salvation.
Greater understanding of the work of Christ in your life will increase your knowlege and understandingwhich will cause you to grow into His image, but so long as you understand the Gospel message and believe it you will be saved.
Some things like this are better caught than taught. Many trust the arguments more than the truth.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 11:34:30 PM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
Some things like this are better caught than taught. Many trust the arguments more than the truth.
This is true, even when the argument is that the Gospel is too mysterious for us to understand <--often a mechanism for silencing honest inquiry.
But truth doesn't exist in a vacuum and God exerted a great deal of effort to give us his Gospel. The least we can do is exert a bit of effort, in the Spirit, trying to understand his Word.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 11:43:55 PM
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mosess8
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You are right in many ways SoulCrushed. However the question was, "Do I need to believe", and the answer is no. My point being that many saints will never come to understand the truth of imputed righteousness but will be saved nonetheless.
If the question had been, "Is imputed righteousness in line with the truth of the Gospel?", my answer would have been a swift YES, with biblical explanation. I was only answering the question as stated: His honest inquiry.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/6/2009 11:51:18 PM
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mosess8
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In fact, I would venture to say that if I have believed the Gospel message I have already accepted the truth of imputed righteousness, though i may not come to Understand it until much later in my walk with Christ.
When I received jesus Christ i received the whole package. It justtakes a while to understand it all. So, my clarrified response to the question as stated is.....Every believer has already received it and all that is left is to come to understand it.
Like Paul still seeking to get his arms around the one who got his arms around him.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/7/2009 12:04:13 AM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
In fact, I would venture to say that if I have believed the Gospel message I have already accepted the truth of imputed righteousness, though i may not come to Understand it until much later in my walk with Christ.
Mosses8, very much appreciate the clarification. This is pretty much where I would go concerning the "babe" in Christ. However, I've recently been struck by how overlooked imputed righteousness is and in some cases how little Christ's righteousness is esteemed by many who claim Christ, particularly by "old timers."
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/7/2009 12:07:21 AM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
Every believer has already received it and all that is left is to come to understand it.
Amen. I guess, my question was framed through my own bias, that is with those who would consider themselves to be maturing or mature in Christ.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/7/2009 10:27:10 AM
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Katie51
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i was touched by your name...soulcrushed. I dont think you have to have this salvation thing totally figured out to come to Him....His righteousness given to me in place of my sins is a beautiful truth and as we grow in Christ we understand more and more (ANd have more and more questions LOL). If you believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died for your sins....you are forgiven.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/7/2009 11:03:42 AM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
I dont think you have to have this salvation thing totally figured out to come to Him....
Well, if I must have faith in order to come to Christ, then according to Scripture that wouldn't be faith..it would be a work. Scripture says we don't figure anything out. We either believe or remain in unbelief - the question, however, was what do we believe? Are you aware that most church creeds well exceed the following statement from you:
quote:
If you believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He died for your sins....you are forgiven.
Since I've already intimated that I do believe that Christ died for my sins, haven't you judged me (and incorrectly according to your own standard) and contradicted yourself?
Paul said, "If we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead we will be saved." There's nothing in this statement that says anything about believing in forgiveness, and yet we know that Paul demanded an understanding of this too in relation to faith and in relation to Jesus being Lord over heaven and earth, death and hell, the power of sin and righteousness.
Katie, this is where I've been going.
Think of it like this....
If each sin I've committed cost a billion dollars and Jesus wiped away the countless sins I have to bring the balance of the debt back to 0, that's wonderful. And I believe this... But this would still leave me before God with nothing, unless Jesus would give me more to present.
< Message edited by SoulCrushed -- 11/7/2009 11:25:30 AM >
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/7/2009 10:45:45 PM
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Katie51
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I dont know what you you mean soulcrushed
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/8/2009 1:59:02 AM
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SoulCrushed
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quote:
I dont know what you you mean soulcrushed
Your statement about me was contradictory with what you said later of all Christians, and you don't seem to understand the concern...one that Christians historically have discussed for nearly 2,000 years.
But I appreciate the response, as apparently the question doesn't concern anyone else.
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/8/2009 6:25:58 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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I guess I don't understand the question. Is the question
A. Is the doctrine that Jesus not only forgave and removed my sin but also gave me his personal righteousness a true doctrine?
or
B. Am I required to believe that Jesus not only forgave and removed my sin but also gave me his personal righteousness?
or
C. Am I not saved if I deny that Jesus gave me his personal righteousness?
or
D. None of the above.
I think that imputed righteousness is an extremely important concept that gets too little attention, but I don't understand exactly what you are asking.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/8/2009 8:22:03 PM
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Katie51
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
quote:
I dont know what you you mean soulcrushed
Your statement about me was contradictory with what you said later of all Christians, and you don't seem to understand the concern...one that Christians historically have discussed for nearly 2,000 years.
But I appreciate the response, as apparently the question doesn't concern anyone else.
perhaps you could rephrase it? I am not sure what i said that was contradictory ...?
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/9/2009 12:31:46 AM
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SoulCrushed
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Katie,
First...
quote:
I dont think you have to have this salvation thing totally figured out to come to Him
and then...
quote:
..as we grow in Christ we understand more and more (ANd have more and more questions LOL)
First you say I don't have this "thing totally figured out to come to him" then you say that Christians "have more and more questions" (i.e. Christians don't have things totally figured out). So either you judged me (my salvation) based on one question you clearly didn't understand and/or like or you misspoke. I'm guessing you misspoke but either way, you weren't consistent.
Furthermore, you ignored my other points that proved by Scripture that your final statement was incorrect at face value but incomplete in reality...which I didn't find helpful or kind.
Anyway, my intent was to have robust discourse on the subject has clearly failed, and so I'm content to let the whole issue drop.
< Message edited by SoulCrushed -- 11/9/2009 12:52:03 AM >
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/9/2009 2:06:03 AM
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AfterTheFlood
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Consider Heb. 10:14
"For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy"
Believing, in any way, that we can become 'righteous' of our own efforts even while we seek to follow him makes a mockery of his sacrifice. Paul writes in Gal. 5 that ".... if you let yourself be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all." Seeking to live by the rules means you will fail at every moment of every day. Again, Heb. 10:1b says of the rules "....For this reason it (the law or rules) can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship." Do not strive to follow the rules for in doing so you crucify him again and again. Strive instead to fellowship with him and you will find out just how true Rom. 2:14 "Indeed when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by NATURE things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thought now accusing, now even defending them."
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/9/2009 9:05:39 AM
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Katie51
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
Katie,
First...
quote:
I dont think you have to have this salvation thing totally figured out to come to Him
and then...
quote:
..as we grow in Christ we understand more and more (ANd have more and more questions LOL)
First you say I don't have this "thing totally figured out to come to him" then you say that Christians "have more and more questions" (i.e. Christians don't have things totally figured out). So either you judged me (my salvation) based on one question you clearly didn't understand and/or like or you misspoke. I'm guessing you misspoke but either way, you weren't consistent.
Furthermore, you ignored my other points that proved by Scripture that your final statement was incorrect at face value but incomplete in reality...which I didn't find helpful or kind.
Anyway, my intent was to have robust discourse on the subject has clearly failed, and so I'm content to let the whole issue drop.
I was certainly not judging your salvation. I am dropping out of the conversation. blessings
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/9/2009 12:11:12 PM
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cposey
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To me it is a matter of how you define faith. For me personally, my understanding of faith is this: Believing that the Word of God is absolutely true no matter the circumstances, cultural trends, or emotions that I have had or am currently experiencing.
His righteousness to me is defined as: being in right standing with God.
Our salvation which comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, is the only way to be in right standing with God. Jesus said that no man can come to the father except through HIM. So by grace given to us by God and through faith in Jesus Christ, who HE was, what HE did for us, and HIS instruction to us, we are saved.
As far as the debate about imputation, impartation, not of either of these, it is more rooted in our perception of what exactly faith and righteousness is.
All I know is that the Holy Spirit and Jesus have transformed my heart, life and mind. The reside with me all of the time and they are my connection to God the Father. For me it is not a matter of theological debate, but recognition that because HIS Holy Spirit and Jesus are always with me, their righteousness allows me to righteous in the eyes of God. It is nothing about me, but everything about Jesus that is the heart of the matter.
< Message edited by cposey -- 11/9/2009 12:18:15 PM >
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/9/2009 2:31:17 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Like Paul still seeking to get his arms around the one who got his arms around him.
and this
quote:
For me it is not a matter of theological debate, but recognition that because HIS Holy Spirit and Jesus are always with me, their righteousness allows me to righteous in the eyes of God. It is nothing about me, but everything about Jesus that is the heart of the matter.
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/9/2009 3:55:17 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SoulCrushed
Does faith require that I believe that not only did Jesus forgive and remove my sin, but that he gave me his personal righteousness?
Given several passages such as 2 Cor. 5:21 and Rom. 1:17, I'm inclined to believe that it does.
In order to be justified you need to have faith in the fact that Jesus forgave and removed your sin by dieing on the cross for you. If you want to be a free, happy, spiritually wealthy, rejoicing and a successful family member you need to believe that it is Christ`s personal imputed righteousness that God sees in you, and not your own.
 If it`s your own righteousness you may see failure. You will than be soulcrushed and unhappy and begin to wonder am I really good enough to enter Heaven. This will make you an unhappy and unsure Christian member of the Christian family. Never sure of anything and always wondering, what if I`m not good enough. A Christian nontheless, but not a positive one. Our righteousness will always fall short of the holiness of our holy God.
I like the verses you quoted above. I`ll add one more to your list. Phil.3:9 states. "and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ- the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." Our faith needs to be in Jesus` righteousness clothing us. This Spirit-filled righteousness will lead you into living a more victorious Christian life, thus giving you victories over your personal sinful temptations. However it`s always God`s power, Christ imputed righteousness within you that gives you this victory, and never your own.
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: Imputed Righteousness - 11/10/2009 11:59:29 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Anyway, my intent was to have robust discourse on the subject has clearly failed, and so I'm content to let the whole issue drop. Robust discourse usually occurs in the Christian Doctrine folder, NOT the General Faith folder, SC. Here is a thread on imputation from last year. A few years ago, I authored a thread on the difference between imputed and imparted righteousness, but it's no longer in the archives. Perhaps you would like me to revisit the issue in Christian Doctrine?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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