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Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/29/2009 4:37:48 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
One Thing I Hate
Dave Burchett
I hate legalism in Christianity. Legalism is answering to the wrong source of authority. Legalists default to religious traditions rather than the Word of God. My faith journey began in a legalistic church. I will probably always walk with a bit of a spiritual limp. Legalism has reared it's ugly and sinful head in the lives of some very dear friends. They are being hurt by church-goers who are living in legalism.
Legalism takes the sweet Gospel of Jesus Christ and mixes in some "churchified" version of the law. Church by-laws occupy equal footing with God's Word. Righteousness is no longer about Christ but about right behavior as only they define it. Legalism cherry picks verses that support behavioral control while conveniently ignoring dozens of verses about grace, forgiveness, kindness, love, gentleness and forbearance.
Focusing on right behavior does make you moral and perhaps a good person. It does not make you righteous. Such focus is not much different (if at all) from an agnostic or sporadic church-goer who really tries hard to do right and moral things. Tim Keller wrote this provocative thought about legalism in his wonderful book The Reason for God.
The devil, if anything, prefers Pharisees—men and women who try to save themselves. They are more unhappy than either mature Christians or irreligious people, and they do a lot more spiritual damage.
Without a doubt. I have been damaged. I have seen loved ones damaged. I have damaged others.
I hate legalism but I don't hate legalists. I hurt for them...
Read the rest of One Thing I Hate
Share your experiences with legalism in the church
_____________________________
Fred "Fritz" Alberti
Director of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Read today's Bible verse from my favorite online Bible
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/29/2009 4:50:52 PM
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hijadelRey71803
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I have most definitely had multiple experiences with legalism in the church. I was taught that if I did things just right and in a certain way that God HAD to accept me. I never really realized how much it had affected me until I got out of it, and now I am struggling not to go back to the way i was
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/29/2009 4:59:30 PM
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MrFribbles
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I didn't personally (at least, not to an extreme degree), but my wife certainly did. She grew up in a church where the women could not cut their hair, could not wear pants, and could not wear make-up. Men were not allowed to have facial hair, and were expected to wear suits to church every Sunday. To do otherwise was a sin.
One of the worst parts of it was the double-standards in place for the Pastor and his family. His daughters were permitted to wear colored lip gloss, because that "wasn't make-up." It left a very bad taste of that particular brand of church in my wife's mouth.
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/30/2009 4:23:56 PM
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Lapidoth
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Only in denominations.................
Legalism is in the eye of the beholder.
And what Mr. Fribbles said.
Assemblies of God in the 50's and 60's.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 10/30/2009 4:29:57 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/30/2009 5:51:39 PM
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sue244
Posts: 528
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From: Colorado
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My old church was very legalistic but I think people would not really thing about it that way since it was one of those seeker friendly churches.
If you didn't go through the 40 days of purpose there was something wrong with you
If you didn't go thought the 40 days of community you were not being a good Christian.
If you wanted to sing something besides a 7 11 praise song you were too old fashion
Sermons were 7 steps to financial freedom, 7 steps to a better life, 7 steps to fill in the blank.
I heard more self help speeches then I ever cared to. Never heard the gospel but I heard a million ways to make my life better.
Now I go to a independent fundamentalist church and have felt liberated from all the laws the modern church seeks to put on people as a way to not offend anyone.
_____________________________
My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/30/2009 7:21:20 PM
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jhuperetes
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I want my own rules to protect me from myself, yet I don't want others to tell me how to "protect", or "free" myself.
I am content not watching R rated movies. I am content of not frequenting bars. I am not tired, miserable or wondering. I am joyful that I do not have to worry about causing someone else to stumble. I am joyful that I, knowing my frailty, have some boundaries. I have no need, nor a want for things I placed outside of these boundaries.
I am happy with my own hedges. If I force my hedges on others, then it becomes legalistic.
But, please - do not force me to be "liberated" just because you think I need to be liberated from my perceived legalism.
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/30/2009 7:42:55 PM
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sue244
Posts: 528
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jhuperetes
But, please - do not force me to be "liberated" just because you think I need to be liberated from my perceived legalism.
AMEN
_____________________________
My country owes me nothing. It gave me, as it gives every boy and girl,
a chance. It gave me schooling, independence of action, opportunity for
service and honor.
Equal rights for all, special privileges for none.
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 10/30/2009 10:40:06 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Only in denominations................. Well, that's a no-brainer, Lapidoth. What good is legalism if you're a "Lone Ranger" Christian with no one to show off to?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 11/2/2009 3:07:47 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5742
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Only in denominations................. Well, that's a no-brainer, Lapidoth. What good is legalism if you're a "Lone Ranger" Christian with no one to show off to?
So true......................lol
I have been ridiculed even within the denominations
because I could care less of what the others thought.
If I was pleasing God, I didn't care if I was pleasing "them."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 11/3/2009 9:24:46 PM
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humbleinspirit
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Some of the legalism that I have encountered in the past:
All Rock and Roll (including Christian Rock) is of the devil.
Don't watch TV or go to movies.
Do not smoke or drink, etc.
You were not godly enough if you did not read and pray for at least an hour a day.
You were less spiritual if you did not pray first thing in the morning.
Not that I have drank or smoked at all, but this was the general consensus on things.
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 11/4/2009 9:15:44 PM
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Shrommer
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My experiences with legalism were mostly in the Catholic Church: going to confession and following the right liturgy, saying the rosary, dipping the hand in the water, crossing myself, and genuflecting, the legalist idea that I had to go to Mass and stay away from other kinds of churches, etc. We thought that to be saved we had to follow Jesus as the example and as the teacher. Now I know Jesus as the Savior.
Tim Keller has the book The Prodigal God, focusing on the two sons of the Prodigal Son story as not knowing the Father's heart, not just the son who spent everything. Another good book is The Grace Awakening by Chuck Swindoll.
Legalism is one extreme; license to sin is the other. Liberty is in the middle: free from unnecessary rules, and free from sin.
Jewish law forbids the use of electrical items on the sabbath, and this is now being applied to a prohibition of sabbath elevators. Instead, families are walking up many flights of stairs to their high-rise apartments in the evenings after Sabbath service, which is even a more obvious breaking of the command to rest. The beasts of burden are to rest, as living beings, but I don't see how using an electric motor that helps mankind to rest is viewed as a violation of the elevator's need to rest. The elevator is not a living thing, nor is its motor. That is legalism to an extreme, and it didn't die in the times of the Romans.
< Message edited by Shrommer -- 11/4/2009 9:36:18 PM >
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 11/5/2009 11:50:25 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Legalism is not rules. God has rules.
Legalism is not meticulously keeping Gods word, watching your dress, your language, you demeanor, your relationships, your walk with Christ, your thought life and much much more.
Legalism is not keeping the commandments of God.
Legalism is not the requirement to obey specific rules laid out by a church or organization or even an individual.
Legalism is the self-righteousness obtained by doing anything whether it be religious or secular. When a legalistic individual requires conformity to the 'rules' to which they proudly find approval in, you find the root of all legalistic constraint. A fruit of legalism is the vain self-flattery within the mind and heart of an individual that he is 'approved' by God and by men because of his conformity to the 'rules'. Therefore legalism is not obedience to any prescribed set of rules, God didnt call his people legalists when they obeyed the law in fear and love toward God. Jesus rebuked the Pharasees because they did their prayers to be seen of men, to give to be seen of men, to wear special clothes and to be seen and noticed by others as holy. They disfigured their faces and displayed their suffering during fasting, all of which to receive approval and approbation of men. This is the prime motive of the legalist, its the doing of anything in the name of God for the purpose of self-gain. Legalism and pretense are bed-fellows.
Yet, a holy man of God is a man who will 'keep the rules' and will obey, meticulously, anything God has put upon his heart. He will wear his hair a certain way, or will dress or speak or live a certain way....and others who see him will attempt to imitate him, some to the glory of God, others to the glory of themselves.
Just remember that legalism has nothing to do with obedience to a code; its the self-approval that someone gains by the applause of men or to disapprove other men who do not conform to the self-imposed ordinances theyve placed upon themselves. Legalism constrains the conscience of a man in order to live by the conscience of another man.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 11/6/2009 12:08:34 AM
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Gloryandgrace
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Freedom from legalism is not giving yourself freedom to do whatever pleases yourself.
Freedom from legalism is not simply rejecting what another man has determined to be sin.
Freedom from legalism is not rejecting laws and commandments and pretending that 'love' is all you need.
All things may be lawful, but all things are not expedient. The freedoms we give ourselves can bring us into bondage just as fast as any legalistic constraint to a code.
You may be free to watch tv, and you may reject as legalism any preaching that suggests you resist or refuse it. But you would be an enormous dullard if you think that feeding your mind and heart with all that junk will not effect your spiritual walk. So while you cry up "legalist" to the anti-Tv sermon, your spiritual life suffers because you are enslaved to the carnal enjoyments which Jesus has commanded you to repent of.
Which is worse? The legalist that will not watch TV because it makes him look spiritual? Or the ignorant dolt that feeds upon adulteries, dirty jokes, lies, thefts, fornications, gossips and rejoices over his liberty that drowns him in mind-wrecking godlessness?
It doesnt matter which is worse, what matters is faith that works by love. Which ever one you do, watch or dont watch, are you doing it for the glory of God and in faith toward Jesus Christ?
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Have you ever dealt with legalism in the church? - 11/7/2009 7:46:52 PM
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souljaboy
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Thanks Fritz for that quote from Dave Burchett. He has got to the core of the issue.
Can I say from experience as a layman and minister, that any church that has a paid pastor/priest, especially a denominational one, will be subject to legalism. There are exceptions but exceptions don't make the rule.
I have dialogued with world HQ of denominatons and local HQ and in almost every situation, their tradition has more authority than the bible.
I tracked a denomination that was going to embark on a new initiative and they had invited someone from outside the denominatoin to head it up because of his stature and character, but he pulled out because there was a war going on between the national and state offices as to who would be in control.
One of the main reasons for legalism (control) is that too many ministers are doing the job because of a spirit of rejection. This means they are looking for recognition and acceptance so they cannot let anyone challenge their position so they have to introduce rules and regulations that will prevent their inadequecies becoming apparant.
Controlling everything means that people can't hear from God directly as it might mean he would say something that would challenge the minister. Most of them say that what you hear from God can't be God because he hasn't spoken to him about it. In other words, he is the only one with a direct line to God.
I had rejection, but was delivered of it and now when I listen to a new speaker I can usually tell within five minutes if he is ministering out of rejection. Whilst it is there they will never reach their full potential because everything is filtered through it. Its main objective is to avoid the truth being realised so everything is rationalised into me versus them. Most of them do not realise that they are a prisoner of rejection.
Usually a minister with rejection is appointed. One without it is annointed.
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