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Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 9:07:06 AM
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PromiseLander
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If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 9:27:47 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
"Observable" seems to me, to be a troubling term. Not only is man not to place his soul in jeopardy over what is observable, but he also should go for a second opinion.
"Conclusions" is another troubling term. Whose? What credentials?
When God himself gives us a revelation, and thousands of years later, men begin to question his credentials, I begin to suspect the questioners, not the revelator.
When scientists "conclude" from the "observable," things in contrast with the revealed, I have no problem whatsoever going with the revealed.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 9:36:52 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
"Observable" seems to me, to be a troubling term. Not only is man not to place his soul in jeopardy over what is observable, but he also should go for a second opinion.
"Conclusions" is another troubling term. Whose? What credentials?
When God himself gives us a revelation, and thousands of years later, men begin to question his credentials, I begin to suspect the questioners, not the revelator.
When scientists "conclude" from the "observable," things in contrast with the revealed, I have no problem whatsoever going with the revealed.
You hit the nail on the head. I've posted several times on the validity of creation -vs- the fallicy of evolution, and dissenters love to post their "evidences" for atheistic ideas... I say "atheistic" ideas because they are in such stark contrast to one another that there is no way that the two views can find middle ground. I still say that there is indeed NO WAY to scientifically prove one way or the other where our origins came from. I say this, because "science" is based upon observability and repeatability - since the origin of our physical universe was neither observed, nor is repeatable by any physical means, any "science" into origins is no science at all. As a matter of fact, without an understanding of Biblical science (As God WAS there to observe, and will one day repeat creation in the new heavens and the new earth, it is science by definition) then the study of origins is mere guesswork at best.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 10:04:39 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
(theo) When scientists "conclude" from the "observable," things in contrast with the revealed, I have no problem whatsoever going with the revealed.
(PromiseLander) I still say that there is indeed NO WAY to scientifically prove one way or the other where our origins came from. I say this, because "science" is based upon observability and repeatability - since the origin of our physical universe was neither observed, nor is repeatable by any physical means, any "science" into origins is no science at all.
I think there is a vast difference in what is being referenced by both scientist and theologian. The scientist offers his "big bang" theory to explain, not "origins," but "beginnings;" The big bang supposedly explains how what currently appears, i.e, an expanding universe, began its current expansion. It has nothing to do with where this universe originated.
The theologian, on the other hand, addresses not the "beginnings" of things, as there are many "beginnings" referenced in scripture; but rather the "origins" of things. Where did 'things" originate?
[reposted from another thread, but applicable]
We speak of origins, science addresses only beginnings long after origins; while scripture expresses time as having no beginning, space, matter, and energy as being created by God's utterance. How is it then understood to be contradicting science's "big bang" theory?
Help me to understand this.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 10:20:25 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
There are no doctrines "of the bible". There are doctrines about the biblical text which have no logical basis i.e. the doctrine espoused by many that a literal reading is always a preferred reading or the doctrine that the scriptural text must be in concordance with modern science or one of them is false.
When such false doctrine is rejected, the question posed in the OP does not arise.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 10:27:34 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
[reposted from another thread, but applicable]
We speak of origins, science addresses only beginnings long after origins; while scripture expresses time as having no beginning, space, matter, and energy as being created by God's utterance. How is it then understood to be contradicting science's "big bang" theory?
Help me to understand this.
Well, the assertion that "Scripture expresses time as having no beginning" is not correct. We read in Genesis that amongst the physical creation itself, there went along with it an order for a progression of instances, a movement not only in the physical sense, but a chronological one: "...and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day..." We know that God is eternal from reading Scripture, therefore tanscendant of time because time is not infinate. Science asserts (to my knowledge) that the "big bang" was a moment in time where nothing was gathered into one place and compacted tightly, then something happened to this nothing and everything sprang forth from it. Biblical creation asserts that God created everything... One moment before even time itself was existant, nothing physically existed. God, the only existing one who depends upon nothing else for His own existence, then spoke our physical reality into existence. Science says that something physical occured to cause our physical universe to come forth from nothing, Biblical creation states this as an impossibility - God, who transcends physical reality, created the physical universe. Nothing physical could create physical reality.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 10:30:16 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
There are no doctrines "of the bible". There are doctrines about the biblical text which have no logical basis i.e. the doctrine espoused by many that a literal reading is always a preferred reading or the doctrine that the scriptural text must be in concordance with modern science or one of them is false.
When such false doctrine is rejected, the question posed in the OP does not arise.
I suppose then, if you claim that there are no doctrines of the Bible, then there is no God??? How can you claim such a thing?
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 10:35:44 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Science asserts (to my knowledge) that the "big bang" was a moment in time where nothing was gathered into one place and compacted tightly, then something happened to this nothing and everything sprang forth from it.
Actually, that is not the case. The big bang could not be a moment in time since it was the beginning point of time. Also, it was not nothing that was compacted together, but all the energy (including all the energy currently locked in matter) that exists in the universe today.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 10:43:14 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Science asserts (to my knowledge) that the "big bang" was a moment in time where nothing was gathered into one place and compacted tightly, then something happened to this nothing and everything sprang forth from it.
Actually, that is not the case. The big bang could not be a moment in time since it was the beginning point of time. Also, it was not nothing that was compacted together, but all the energy (including all the energy currently locked in matter) that exists in the universe today.
OK, then please forgive me for my somewhat limited understanding of certain aspects of scientific speculation... What is the current idea of where all of that energy came from? How did that originate? And in what form was it?
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 11:01:39 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
You create a false dichotomy, implying they (the Bible and science) speak to the same issues. They do not, therefore there is no either-or imperative. On may trust both or distrust both.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 11:05:35 AM
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gluadys
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Science asserts (to my knowledge) that the "big bang" was a moment in time where nothing was gathered into one place and compacted tightly, then something happened to this nothing and everything sprang forth from it.
Actually, that is not the case. The big bang could not be a moment in time since it was the beginning point of time. Also, it was not nothing that was compacted together, but all the energy (including all the energy currently locked in matter) that exists in the universe today.
OK, then please forgive me for my somewhat limited understanding of certain aspects of scientific speculation... What is the current idea of where all of that energy came from? How did that originate? And in what form was it?
As far as I know, at the moment, there are no scientific answers to these questions.
One philosophical possibility is that it is eternal in nature and so need not come from anywhere or anything. Another is that it was created, indeed that the creation of this energy is what we call the big bang.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 11:20:51 AM
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Embedded
Posts: 57
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
PL, have you read St. Augusting on Science and Scripture ? That was written about 1600 years ago.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 11:22:55 AM
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PromiseLander
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quote:
As far as I know, at the moment, there are no scientific answers to these questions.
One philosophical possibility is that it is eternal in nature and so need not come from anywhere or anything. Another is that it was created, indeed that the creation of this energy is what we call the big bang.
As I have argued on another thread, physical existence (time included) cannot be eternal in scope. This can be seen in the following analogy: Suppose we are standing in front of a line of falling dominoes and we are standing in front of domino "X." If there are an infinate number of dominoes to fall before we get to "X," then it will never get to "X." This of course pertains to physical existence only... In this particular instance I maintain that the Genesis story is scientific in nature in that, although we cannot observe or replicate origins, the story was written by a man who was told by the person who conducted the procedure how it occured. Much like a scientific paper, I may not be able to personally conduct the experiments in nuclear physics that I read about, but I can read a paper from the people who do, and I still call it science. In that case, it isn't the procedure in science that is in question, but the reliability of the one who wrote the paper.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 11:27:28 AM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Embedded
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
PL, have you read St. Augusting on Science and Scripture ? That was written about 1600 years ago.
So I suppose then that you (along with Augustine) are asking me to question the validity of the first sentence of Genesis?
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 11:35:56 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gluadys
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
There are no doctrines "of the bible". There are doctrines about the biblical text which have no logical basis i.e. the doctrine espoused by many that a literal reading is always a preferred reading or the doctrine that the scriptural text must be in concordance with modern science or one of them is false.
When such false doctrine is rejected, the question posed in the OP does not arise.
Sorry to burst your bubble there, but ALL of the bible teaches doctrine. And we are to pay heed to it, as well as pass it on to those who follow after us.
REFERENCE TO DOCTRINE OF GOD
"Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. 15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My DOCTRINE, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the DOCTRINE, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." [John 7:14-17]
REFERENCE TO DOCTRINE OF GOD
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his DOCTRINE be not blasphemed." [I Tim 6:1]
REFERENCE TO DOCTRINE OF GOD
"Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in DOCTRINE shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you. 9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; 10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the DOCTRINE of God our Saviour in all things." [Titus 2:3-10]
REFERENCE TO DOCTRINE OF THE LORD
"Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, 10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? 11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. 12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the DOCTRINE of the Lord." [Acts 13:9-12]
REFERENCE TO DOCTRINE OF CHRIST
"Therefore leaving the principles of the DOCTRINE of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the DOCTRINE of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit."[Heb 6:12-3]
REFERENCE TO DOCTRINE OF CHRIST
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the DOCTRINE of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the DOCTRINE of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this DOCTRINE, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." [II John 1:9-11]
REFERENCE TO "DOCTRINE" AS TAUGHT ELSEWHERE IN SCRIPTURE
"Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. 2 My DOCTRINE shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: 3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." [Deu 32:1-4]
"Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. 2 For I give you good DOCTRINE, forsake ye not my law. 3 For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother. 4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. 6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. 8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. 9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.
10 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many. 11 I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths. 12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble. 13 Take fast hold of instruction; let her not go: keep her; for she is thy life. 14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. 15 Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. 16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. 17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.
18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. 20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings. 21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart. 22 For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh. 23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. 24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. 25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. 26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. 27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil." [Prov 4]
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand DOCTRINE? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem." [Isa 28:9-14]
"Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. 23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. 24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn DOCTRINE." [Isa 29:22-24]
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his DOCTRINE: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." [Mat 7:24-29][Mark 1:22]
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. 33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his DOCTRINE." [Mat 22:29-33]
"And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. 26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him. 27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new DOCTRINE is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. 28 And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee." [Mark 1:23-28]
"And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his DOCTRINE, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable." [Mark 4:1-10]
"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his DOCTRINE." [Mark 11:15-18]
"And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. 38 And he said unto them in his DOCTRINE, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation." [Mark 12:35-40]
"And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. 32 And they were astonished at his DOCTRINE: for his word was with power." [Luke 4:31-32]
"The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his DOCTRINE. 20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing." [John 18:19-20]
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' DOCTRINE and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." [Acts 2:38-45]
"But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, 20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life. 21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought. 22 But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned, and told, 23 Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within. 24 Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 25 Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.26 Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned. 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your DOCTRINE, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." [Acts 5:19-32]
"Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new DOCTRINE, whereof thou speakest, is? 20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) 22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" [Acts 17:18-26]
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of DOCTRINE which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." [Rom 6:17-18]
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the DOCTRINE which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." [Rom 16:17-18]
"Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by DOCTRINE?" [I Cor 14:6]
"If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a DOCTRINE, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying." [I Cor 14:23-26]
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of DOCTRINE, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." [Eph 4:11-16]
"If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good DOCTRINE, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness." [I Tim 4:6-7]
"Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to DOCTRINE. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." [I Tim 4:12-16]
"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and DOCTRINE. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." [I Tim 5:17-18]
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the DOCTRINE which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." [I Tim 6:3-5]
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." [II Tim 3:16-4:4]
"For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound DOCTRINE both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." [Titus 1:7-9]
"But speak thou the things which become sound DOCTRINE:" [Titus 2:1]
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 11:39:03 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
If the conclusions derived from an observable science are in contrast to doctrines of the Bible, which do you trust, and why?
You create a false dichotomy, implying they (the Bible and science) speak to the same issues. They do not, therefore there is no either-or imperative. On may trust both or distrust both.
I see no false dichotomy in the question. "If the conclusions...are in contrast" is not a false dichomoty. "When the conclusions contrast" might be so categorized.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 12:19:45 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
(theo) [reposted from another thread, but applicable]
We speak of origins, science addresses only beginnings long after origins; while scripture expresses time as having no beginning, space, matter, and energy as being created by God's utterance. How is it then understood to be contradicting science's "big bang" theory?
Help me to understand this.
(PromiseLander) Well, the assertion that "Scripture expresses time as having no beginning" is not correct. We read in Genesis that amongst the physical creation itself, there went along with it an order for a progression of instances, a movement not only in the physical sense, but a chronological one: "...and there was evening, and there was morning, the first day..." We know that God is eternal from reading Scripture, therefore tanscendant of time because time is not infinate.
(theo) We read of creation other than physical. Angels, who are all ministering spirits, [Heb 1:13-14]; were created by God [Psa 148:2-5];
and witnessed creation of physical things [Job 38:4-7].
To say "time is not infinite" denies the definition of "eternal," which is a reference to all of time with no end and no beginning.
The fact that Genesis tells us of the creation of tools by which men are to measure time, (sun and moon) does not tell us time itself was created.
God created many things prior to creating physical entities, so physical being is not the beginning of creations.
God is not transcendent of time, for he requires time in which to "be." It is a doctrine made up by men to make God appear more than he is. but it actually makes him less that he is because he is the master of time,
and to predate time, would make him master of nothing.
quote:
(PromiseLander) Science asserts (to my knowledge) that the "big bang" was a moment in time where nothing was gathered into one place and compacted tightly, then something happened to this nothing and everything sprang forth from it.
(theo) If that is actually what science asserts, I would have to question how you can gather "nothing" anywhere, and further, how can it be compacted? I have to question whether religious zeal dictates other than the scientific view. IOW Is that really what science is asserting?
quote:
(PromiseLander) Biblical creation asserts that God created everything... One moment before even time itself was existant, nothing physically existed. God, the only existing one who depends upon nothing else for His own existence, then spoke our physical reality into existence.
(theo) Actually biblical creation does not assert. It is asserted by God in the bible account of creation, the account that tells us of the origin of things.
"One moment before time itself was existent" is not in the biblical account. It is developed by men for the purposes of making tradition equal with scripture as the source of truth.
quote:
(PromiseLander) Science says that something physical occured to cause our physical universe to come forth from nothing, Biblical creation states this as an impossibility - God, who transcends physical reality, created the physical universe. Nothing physical could create physical reality.
(theo) I am not sure, but I think your representation of the scientific position is flawed. I understand the scientific position to be referencing the beginning of the universe as it is now found to be; i.e., having nothing to do with its origin, but only with its currentphase beginning. I could be wrong. Do you know?
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 12:32:34 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
(PromiseLander) As I have argued on another thread, physical existence (time included) cannot be eternal in scope. This can be seen in the following analogy: Suppose we are standing in front of a line of falling dominoes and we are standing in front of domino "X." If there are an infinate number of dominoes to fall before we get to "X," then it will never get to "X." This of course pertains to physical existence only...
Actually it pertains only to the analogy.
Analogy: a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based.
The analogy is faulted, even though it is favoured by gazillions of both religious and scientific would be philosophers, for the simple reason no one has questioned its proper application.
There is no similarity between "eternal time" and a hypothetical infinite number of dominoes. There is no reality in the hypothetical "infinite number of dominoes." There is reality in "eternal time." They are not analogous.
It is one thing to agree to something "for the sake of the argument" but that does not make the argument true; it only makes temporary agreement for the argument"s sake. It lend's nothing to the truth or falsity of the terms of the argument.
quote:
(PromiseLander) In this particular instance I maintain that the Genesis story is scientific in nature in that, although we cannot observe or replicate origins, the story was written by a man who was told by the person who conducted the procedure how it occured. Much like a scientific paper, I may not be able to personally conduct the experiments in nuclear physics that I read about, but I can read a paper from the people who do, and I still call it science. In that case, it isn't the procedure in science that is in question, but the reliability of the one who wrote the paper.
(theo) All that statement does is identify you as one who does not believe in the inspiration of the bible. You do not accept the authors own testimony that He told Moses to write the account in a book. And you do not believe the testimony of the author who testifies he created what is, not experiments to see what could be improved upon.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 12:34:37 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
(theo) I am not sure, but I think your representation of the scientific position is flawed. I understand the scientific position to be referencing the beginning of the universe as it is now found to be; i.e., having nothing to do with its origin, but only with its currentphase beginning. I could be wrong. Do you know?
Well, I'm an architect, not a scientist - I am only concerned with that portion of science so far as it helps me to suspend quantities of building materials above the earth in somewhat pleasing forms that permit sustainable lifestyles... BUT, if scientists are attempting to differentiate "Origins" from "Beginnings," is this not some form of symantics subterfuge?
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 12:41:05 PM
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PromiseLander
Posts: 358
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
All that statement does is identify you as one who does not believe in the inspiration of the bible. You do not accept the authors own testimony that He told Moses to write the account in a book. And you do not believe the testimony of the author who testifies he created what is, not experiments to see what could be improved upon.
Huh? Then you misread my post... I wrote that as an affirmation of the authority of Scripture. I am stating that the creation story IS truth, and can be considered scientific truth, even though it is not observable or repeatable by man in the same sense that a scientific paper on nuclear physics is still considered scientific even though I, myself cannot carry out the procedures described. The issue of being science is not in question as long as one can trust the source. God is ultimately the only one we CAN trust, therefore the Genesis' creation account is scientifically accurate.
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RE: Conflicts... - 7/21/2008 12:43:08 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
quote:
(theo) I am not sure, but I think your representation of the scientific position is flawed. I understand the scientific position to be referencing the beginning of the universe as it is now found to be; i.e., having nothing to do with its origin, but only with its currentphase beginning. I could be wrong. Do you know?
Well, I'm an architect, not a scientist - I am only concerned with that portion of science so far as it helps me to suspend quantities of building materials above the earth in somewhat pleasing forms that permit sustainable lifestyles... BUT, if scientists are attempting to differentiate "Origins" from "Beginnings," is this not some form of symantics subterfuge?
I am not sure. I think it may be just the result of both sides in the argument using synonyms, when the synonyms begin to be contradictory. Then both sides claim they are misrepresented. And they may wlll both be right.
There is a definable difference between beginnings and origins. Many people headed west in the United States, beginning from Missouri, but the westward trek had its origins in the Eastern Seaboard.
I can understand why a scientist might surmise a "beginning" of things as we see them, without referencing the origin of those same things. I just am ignorant of the truth or falsity of the position. I am only presenting it as it was presented to me on another board. Again, I enquire, does anyone know?
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