Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of the Peace?
View related threads:
(in this forum
| in all forums)
|
Logged in as: Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/2/2009 9:14:52 PM
|
|
|
agapetos
Posts: 9718
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
Status: offline
|
quote:
A Phoenix Episcopal Bishop has been arrested for violating the city's noise ordinance for tolling his church's bells daily on the 1/2 hour. Except he's playing a recording of the bells.
If I was to turn my stereo on full blast and put some worship music on, I'd be in trouble for disturbing the peace.
I've rung church bells before. We'd never have dreamt of ringing the bells every half an hour because of disturbing others ~ despite the fact the church (and bells) were built long before a lot of the town.
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
My blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/2/2009 10:20:55 PM
|
|
|
manhattan42
Posts: 223
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
My first thought when I saw this story on World News Tonight was not that this Bishop was trying to draw attention to Christ, but rather that he was trying to draw attention to himself....and get his 15 minutes of fame in the process...
---
That said, this story 'rang' true for recent events in the lives of my wife and me.
We built and moved to our existing home on (what we thought was )a 'quiet' cul-de-sac 2 years ago.
The 'noisy' 30-something couple across the street with 2 boys IMMEDIATELY changed our opinion of of new neighborhood and new home, making us question our sanity and convictions and brains for having moved there.
The husband and father would come home from work daily at 3pm, open his garage door (aimed like a large megaphone at our house), turn on his 4 foot high stereo speakers located within the garage, then go out in the yard so he could hear the 'music' over his gas mower....and keep it blasting until he went inside about 9pm.
(Did ya ever hear of 'earphones', buddy, we wondered?)
When his kids came home from school and on Saturdays, they would imitate their father, turn on their favorite hip-hop or other Fav music channel, then go to the middle of the cul-de-sac where they kept their portable basketball hoop... and WE were tortured by the da-boomp-boomp boomp... da-boomp-boomp-boomp from the basketball along with the shoop-shoop-CHIC, da-shoop-shoop-CHIC of their heavy bass music.
On Sunday's, dad, would open the garage doors early in th AM, well before our Church time, and listen to pre-game baseball or football warm-ups then the games themselves until dark...
On Christmas Day, he would place the 4 foot speakers outside the garage, turn on the worst local commercial FM channel and play commercial Christmas songs (along with all the commercials) as loud as possible from 8AM until 8PM.
This noise could be heard with our doors and windows closed from nearly 200 feet away.
Even repeated calls to the police had little effect.
It was only after I personally confronted the man (a PhD in a local special school for 'troubled children' mind you) in his own driveway in front of his own children, and embarrassed him (rightfully) for not having his own children under control, let alone being to them one of the worst of all possible personal bad examples of 'un-neighborliness' I had ever experienced...did "something" finally sink in and the 'noise' finally abate and the Boom-chick-a-shoop-shoop and thump-thump-thump finally stop...FOR GOOD.
And just for the record...and just so no one tries to accuse us of 'hating kids' or 'loud music'.... my wife and I came from our former neighborhood where there were actually MORE children, and MORE close quartered neighbors with all their quirks....and yet despite that...all we prior neighbors learned to do MORE to tread gently upon and not upset one another.
This "Bishop" bloke in the story above does not give one care for his neighbors or his own Parishioners anymore than did my 'neighbor' give any care for anyone of us who lived near him nor his own sons...
Only when it became clear to this guy and his wife across the cul-de-sac that what they were in fact doing was a 'bad example' to the kids... and might ultimately be reported to his employer...did their nonsense stop.
...And my wife's and my right to peaceably enjoy our home without disturbance ultimately restored.
I hate confrontation but confrontation is sometimes the only thing that some people understand.
If I had lived near this "Bishop's" Church in Phoenix, I would ALSO be in line to have him arrested and sue for damages.
My and my wife's sanity and property values would be at stake.
Yet there remain some, like this Bishop, who simply want to behave badly "In Jesus' Name" in order to make believe they have some special dispensation from 'God' to walk all over their neighbors whomever they may be....and just so they can cop a headline in the process.
This "Bishop'" needs a hard slap in the head with a mallet, 2 by 4, steel I-beam or other 'rod-of-correction'.
And is no "Bishop" if he needs any of the above for his private 'wake-up' call....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 8:52:18 AM
|
|
|
Consecrated2God
Posts: 4910
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
|
Some church bells do get out of hand, I must say. 
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 9:55:01 AM
|
|
|
coolfamily6
Posts: 660
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think that if you choose to live next to a cathedral you should expect to hear church bells throughout the week.
Church bells are very different than a recording of church bells. Canned music is no where near as nice as the real thing. Also why does it have to start at 6 am in a neighborhood?
< Message edited by coolfamily6 -- 11/3/2009 10:04:42 AM >
_____________________________
If your bible is a mess; your life won't be.
~Encouragement a mom gave to our children at our First Grader's Bible Ceremony!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 10:54:42 AM
|
|
|
KaptZ
Posts: 155
Joined: 10/28/2009
From: The swamps of Jersey
Status: offline
|
Every 1/2 hour is a bit much.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 11:07:30 AM
|
|
|
garsyt
Posts: 1738
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the bottom of the laundry basket
Status: offline
|
The cathedral came in AFTER these neighbors already were living there. And in case you haven't heard - property values kinda stink here lately. PLUS with something like recorded church bells chiming EVERY half hour throughout the day- well there is certainly not a lot of folks that would want to buy into that sort of neighborhood.
Now I LOVE church bells. I get up early on Sunday mornings just to hear the dueling church bells of the 3 local churches all within 5 blocks of where I live. On Christmas morning when all is calm and still - those church bells are absolutely lovely. It's like a chorus of heavenly angels! But I have a feeling they wouldn't be AS lovely if it were a constant, everyday, all day long thing. Some people work nights and I'm certain they like to get a little shut eye during the day. There are parents with babies that need naps that last longer then 30 minutes. There are some dogs - like the beagles down the street from us as well as the jack russells, that will howl like crazy every blasted time the bells sounded. It happens here about 2 minutes into the bells just about every Sunday morning.
I do think that the church has to be a bit more considerate of the neighborhood they moved into. People shouldn't be forced into listening to listen to the recording simply because the church sees it as quote:
one of the ways that God speaks out and says to the community that there is somebody here that cares," said Bishop Rick Painter, rector, Cathedral of Christ the King. Honestly from the sounds of things - more folks are getting annoyed with it than are enjoying it or thinking that the church cares for them.
Blessings,
Garsy
_____________________________
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 1:52:48 PM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2531
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: online
|
If I heard cows mooing loudly at 6am, my son would be thrilled at the prospect of hamburgers for breakfast.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 2:05:42 PM
|
|
|
agapetos
Posts: 9718
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
Status: offline
|
I hear sheep bleating through most of the year...
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
My blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 2:19:14 PM
|
|
|
garsyt
Posts: 1738
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the bottom of the laundry basket
Status: offline
|
quote:
As for me, I kinda like church bells. Here in England it's part of the history of the place. It's like living in the country and hearing cows mooing. Or living in the city and hearing the hustle and bustle of people. It's part of the background music of life.
Except this "background music" was inserted into peoples lives without fair warning. The bishop in question just apparently on a whim, made a decision and followed through with it for little to no concern for the neighborhood around him.
When my husband and I were first married we lived in an apartment across the street from a fire station. It was very hard for me to get use to. But we chose to live there knowing full well that the fire alarm could sound and did at all hours of the day and night. But it wasn't every half hour.
Cows do moo at 6 am and at other times - but it's not a every half hour on the half hour occurrence. Trust me I grew up around farms and cattle. But if one of my neighbors choose to get, say a rooster that crowed every half hour on the half hour. Well let's just say, I'd be suggesting a chicken dinner.
When you live in a city - as we have you eventually get used to the routine noise - the low din of traffic, the occasional siren, dogs barking whatever - but you choose to live there and have full knowledge that this is typical or at least you should when you move in.
BUT in this case - the church moved into the neighborhood and in my opinion is not drawing people into their church or to Christ - but being an annoyance and pushing them away.
Blessings,
Garsy
_____________________________
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 3:38:21 PM
|
|
|
betterisoneday
Posts: 398
Joined: 1/10/2008
Status: online
|
Not sure how close you live to it; but I've been following all the interviews and stories from the local newspaper/tv and the bishop did meet with the neighbors to try to find a compromise. The story in the OP shows he offered to reduce it to once an hour; and the local stories had him offering to reduce it to twice a day.
Now I'm all for real bells rather than recorded but I don't think this is one side = good; other side = bad. It's not like Phoenix or even Maricopa county regularly enforce noise ordinances even with complaints.
_____________________________
No reserves. No retreat. No regret.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 3:52:32 PM
|
|
|
tacitus
Posts: 1289
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Sorry, but as others have said, since this is a case where the bells have started up in an already established neighborhood and it contravenes the existing noise ordinances (whether or not they are properly enforced all the time) then this is a black and white issue. What it a mosque decides to move in next door and play a recording of the Muslim call to prayer several times a day? I doubt you would be so sympathetic. Unless the cathedral has received permission to blast out the bell recordings, then they don't have a legal leg to stand on.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/3/2009 4:21:13 PM
|
|
|
kohls356
Posts: 640
Joined: 8/22/2007
Status: offline
|
I wouldn't want to hear those bells, recorded or otherwise, every 1/2 hour all day long either. Seems like the bishop doesn't think too much of his neighbors if he can't understand that that is disturbing the peace.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/4/2009 2:33:45 PM
|
|
|
mapachito13
Posts: 2594
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
|
The original reason for church bells have actually been antiquated. That is what called the people to church and gave them an idea of the time of day. Nowadays it can be an annoyance if the sound level is turned up too high. Many churches in LA have had recorded bells for decades. Automation spelled the death of the job of bell ringer at many a church.
As far as the church, they should be trying to be a good neighbor and cut back on it. Tolling the hour should be OK (watching the volume of course) but even then that could be overkill.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"Freedom comes with an educated mind." - Jacqueline Rushing
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/6/2009 2:14:21 PM
|
|
|
jdshingl
Posts: 5
Joined: 11/6/2009
Status: offline
|
Sec. 23-12. Creation of unreasonably loud and disturbing noises prohibited.
Subject to the provisions of this article the creating of any unreasonably loud, disturbing and unnecessary noise within the limits of the City is hereby prohibited.
(Code 1962, § 26-1)
I'm From this Church and the bells only rang every half hour for 2 days. The Bishop and the church council then changed the times to once an hour from 8am to 8 pm the bells only ring the hours for 30 seconds at the top of the hour except for noon when they ring for 1 minute and 45 seconds. We also put up sound abatement foam and pointed the speakers up and away from the neighbors. The Bishop tried to negotiate with the neighbors but they were obstinate and refused to compromise and walked out, They also stated in court that they wanted absolutely no bells. A decibel reading was taken at the property line and it was 67db.
The traffic noise on the road was louder than the bells. Before the bells started ringing we put out over 1000 fliers notifying the neighborhood that we were going to start ringing the bells on Palm Sunday 2008 and we received zero comments from any of them.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/6/2009 3:53:48 PM
|
|
|
tacitus
Posts: 1289
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Why should your neighbors have compromised? Your church was the one who started blasting the recording out 24 times a day, when before there was nothing. Traffic noise is not the issue -- people who decided to live there must have done so in full recognition of how noisy the local traffic was.
There is no justification for what your church did without getting planning permission first. You know how many fliers people stuck on their doors get every week? Most of them probably ended up in the trash unread.
If I was to start playing 67db recording every 30 minutes on my front lawn every day, the police would soon be dragging me off to jail. And I somehow very much doubt that my effort to agree a compromise of only playing the recording once every hour and pointing the speakers at the sky would have been seen as much of a compromise by my neighbors.
Your church poisoned the well by overdoing it in the first place. Seems to me that allowing the church to play the bells on Sundays as a call to worship (which I believe was the final settlement determined by the judge) is a perfectly good compromise.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/6/2009 5:55:43 PM
|
|
|
jdshingl
Posts: 5
Joined: 11/6/2009
Status: offline
|
You do realize that 67 db is in the range of a normal conversation?
Since there is no set standard for what constituted a noise violation the ordinance is so vague that any sound that you make that I don't like is in violation of the law, The ordinance is in violation of the first amendment. Now if there wasn't an exemption for ice cream trucks and if there was a set standard to follow then we would have followed that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/6/2009 6:08:22 PM
|
|
|
tacitus
Posts: 1289
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Not quite:
quote:
70db: Freeway traffic at 15m, vacuum cleaner (annoying)
60db: Conversation in restaurant, office, background music
50db: Quiet suburb, conversation at home. (quiet)
(I looked up several sources and they all say pretty much the same thing).
Since the decibel scale is logarithmic, there is a large difference between an office-level conservation at 60db and the 67db you quote.
Also, was it 67db before or after your noise abatement efforts? If it was after, you were too late anyway, having riled up your neighbors already.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Church Bells: Freedom of Religion or Disturbance of... - 11/6/2009 11:51:29 PM
|
|
|
JustaFan
Posts: 371
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
I hear sheep bleating through most of the year...
Do you mind that? My sister used to live next to a sheep farm. I rather liked sleeping at her house, hearing the sheep at night. My parents used to have cows near their house. I liked that too.
_____________________________
Judith
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT ~ PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS! 
