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All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/19/2008 11:17:28 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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I know Israel has a HUGE part in the end times. I thought id share a topic that i found quite scary. This man, who i believe has ALOT to do with the end times prophecy, has no idea of the fate that awaits him.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/09/18/international/i091723D38.DTL&feed=rss.business
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad lashed out at Israel on Thursday, saying the Jewish state would not survive, even if it gave up land for a Palestinian state. He also dismissed allegations that his country is trying to make nuclear arms.
Speaking to reporters in Tehran, the hard-line leader smirked at the former mantra of the Israeli right of a "Greater" Israel that would include land Palestinians want for a future state. The idea has since been abandoned, with the Israeli political consensus now being that there would be a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, on either side of Israel.
"I have heard some say the idea of Greater Israel has expired," Ahmadinejad said. "I say that the idea of lesser Israel has expired, too."
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/27/2008 2:40:04 PM
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Ntech
Posts: 71
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It's the buildup to the Gog-Magog event. Eventually the Muslims will try to implemet their "final solution" to their Israel problem. And that's when they will find out which side "God" is really on.
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 1:10:14 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 462
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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God is on the side of those who follow His Son.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 11:32:40 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 397
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Ntech and Child4Jesus.
I know this will sound "nit-picky" and condescending, but we should have learned something from Y'hoshua's encounter with the man with his sword drawn:
Joshua 5:13-15
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
KJV
God is not on anyone's side; one needs to be on GOD'S side!
Child4Jesus, God is NOT on the side of "those who follow His Son." We need to be VERY clear on this point because this is the thinking that caused the Crusades, the pogroms, the purges, and the inquisitions of Russia and Europe over the last 1700 years! Much evil was done in the name of Christ down through the years both to the Muslims and the Jews and even some lesser bands of Christians!
Ntech, you're right, though; Isra'el is dear to God's heart and He will not let them "go quietly into the night" without a fight! Islam has been kicking against the ox-goad for a LONG time! They have said repeatedly that Islam has taken the place of Judaism and Christianity, too, but they will soon learn (by the school of hard knocks) who God loves!Christians, too, have fallen into this same mentality, because those who adhere to the Replacement Theology philosophy will often claim ... almost BRAG ... that "God is through with the Jews" and has replaced them with the Church as His recipients of the promises!
However, nothing could be further from the truth! Read Romans chapters 9 through 11 and tell me that God is through with the Jews! It's not possible for God to repent or change His mind! He's loved His people thousands of years ago, and He loves them yet today for the sakes of their ancestors! Zechariah tells us in chapters 12 through 14 of his prophecy that God, through His Representative, the Messiah, whom we now know is Yeshua` HaMashiach (Jesus the Christ), will rescue His people and save them when they are attacked by those who would annihilate them and "drive them into the sea." God is NOT through with His people, Isra'el.
Retrobyter
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 12:36:09 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 462
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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Retrobyter,
I think you misunderstand. I said He is on the side of those who follow Him. Not those who claim to follow Him and do evil in His name.
God is not through with the Jews. He still wants unbelieving Jews, Italians, Jamaicans, Haitians, and any other nationality to come to Him. God works through Christians. Christians are His people. That would include ALL people groups on Earth who are disciples of Christ. Claiming that a Jews are God's people just because they are Jewish is nonsense. There has always been a remnant and God had mercy on them as a whole because of said remnant.
First who Israel is has to be established. According to Scripture Israel are the Children of the Promise.
Galatians 3:15-24
15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
The promise comes thru faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The Promises are made to the Seed and extended to those who are in the Seed, Jew or Gentile.
Romans 9:1-7
1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. 6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
It can't be more clear. One is not God's child because of who your ancestor is but, clearly it says you are Abraham's children if you are a child of the promise. How is someone Abraham's offspring? If he/she does the works of Abraham.
Where is what Jesus says.
John 8:37-44
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
What are the works of Abraham but faith and obedience to God?
Who are the Children of the promise?
Galatians 3:26-30 (New International Version)
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
How does one refute the about. You are Abraham's seed is you belong to Christ and an heir according to the promise.
Romans 4:13
13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:16
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
Who the descendants are is clearly shown in scripture. The promise will be guaranteed to all descendants. One is a descendant of Abraham by having the type of Faith that Abraham had.
Ephesians 3:5-7
5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.
People seem to think that just because a person is Jewish means they are automatically a son of promise, but scripture is very clear that that is NOT the case. Scripture itself says the promise was to the SEED which is Christ. If you are in Christ you are an heir of the promise. That includes EVERYONE including Jews who believe in Jesus.
Galatians 6:12-17
12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Who is the Israel of God?
All who are according to Faith in Jesus Christ. Also thruout Scripture you will see that there was also a remnant. The remnant are those of the Jews who always stuck with God, then for Pauls time those who put faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Romans 9:27
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.
Romans 11
1 I ask then:Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
It is obvious from the text that just being a Israelite isn't what makes you God's people. The people of God are his remnant of the Jews and everyone else who has placed Faith in Jesus Christ. Also when it says He, God, has not reject His people, it means He has not rejected the entire nation because he kept the ones who refused to bow the knee to Baal. Those people where not rejected.
All of Romans 11:
Romans 11
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY." 9 And David says, "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM. 10 "LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT, AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER." 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 26 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Italics 1:
God's remnant
Italics 2:
God's remnant in Pauls time. Believing Jews.
Italics 3:
Those who obtained are the remnant because that is who he is talking about and the rest are the rest of the Israelites who have not believed.
Italics 4:
Gentiles who believe are grafted into the true Israel. Why can I say this? Because unbelieving Israelites are broken off. Paul says somewhere else, " For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
Italics 5:
Grafted in because of Faith. Faith is Christ is what makes you Israel as the above states.
Italics 6:
If unbelieving Jews don't continue in unbelief they will be grafted back in.
Italics 7:
The hardening in part doesn't mean all Jews for the rest of time until one day all who are Jewish will believe in Jesus. The in part refers to unbelieving Jews, because there were certainly believing Jews during Paul's time which Paul is and the book of Acts shows over and over again. Also if it is the case that all who are Jewish will be saved people should be procreating with Jewish women like crazy cause that grantes that the children will eventually be saved because they are Jews.
So Paul goes thru the trouble of establishing who Israel is. Saying not because you Abraham's descendant makes you a child of promise. Only to turn around and say the whole nation will be saved? He even says a couple of times in the book that only the Remant (believing Jews) will be saved. The hardening is talking about some Jews not the entire nation. If that was the case then there would have been no believing Jews at his time including himself. Look at the text. He is taking about the people not the nation. He has already established who Israel is. He says that only part of the people are hardened. Once all Gentiles who are part of the children of promise (Gentiles and believing Jews) all Israel (the Children of the Promise) will be saved. He is not saying that simply being Jewish means you will be saved.
Concerning the hardening also. God is just giving them over to the stubbornness that is already in the hearts of the people. Other wise why would Jesus say such things as:
Luke 13:34-35
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!
John 8:37-44
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Like others have been saying the only way to come to the Father is thru the Son. Not because a person is Jewish means they get an automatic pass. Otherwise what Jesus and Paul say is nonsense.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 12:59:50 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Like others have been saying the only way to come to the Father is thru the Son. Not because a person is Jewish means they get an automatic pass. Otherwise what Jesus and Paul say is nonsense.
This can be one of those sticky issues.
Salvation is of the Jews as Christ said to the woman at the well.
Jesus was and is a Jew. {Human side}
Israel played a role in our own salvation.
Yet, Israel plays a role in the end time just
because they are part of God's over all plan.
Segments of the "plan" isn't the totality of the "plan."
As is pointed out in Joshua, God is not on anyone's side.
The sentiment is understood, but the truth is there.
God is on no one's side, we are just on His side, or we're not.
Whether Gentile or Jew. God favors Israel because God
chose Israel (Abraham). He will fulfill His promise to Abraham.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 1:21:27 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 462
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
Like others have been saying the only way to come to the Father is thru the Son. Not because a person is Jewish means they get an automatic pass. Otherwise what Jesus and Paul say is nonsense.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
This can be one of those sticky issues.
Salvation is of the Jews as Christ said to the woman at the well. Jesus was and is a Jew. {Human side}
Israel played a role in our own salvation. Yet, Israel plays a role in the end time just because they are part of God's over all plan.
Segments of the "plan" isn't the totality of the "plan."
As is pointed out in Joshua, God is not on anyone's side. The sentiment is understood, but the truth is there. God is on no one's side, we are just on His side, or we're not. Whether Gentile or Jew. God favors Israel because God chose Israel (Abraham). He will fulfill His promise to Abraham.
Yeah what Jesus meant by Salvation is of the Jews is salvation comes through Him and He came to the world through a predominantly Jewish line. People however tend to forget that some of the key people in his line were gentile. Another thing people forget is that Abraham didn't start out Jewish.
I also agree that Israel (if you mean Jews) play a role. However everybody plays are role. We are in the end times now. I also agree that segments of the plan doesn't mean totality of the plan. However some would have you think that creation was/is/and will always be about Jews and the end times are all about the Jews.
A major problem in Christianity today is an almost obsession with Jews. It's almost fanatical. Jews/Israel (the nation) is held in such high regard and more important that everyone else. They can do no wrong. If you don't hold them in that high regard you are anti-Semitic. Some even think that Jews are saved by virtue of being Jewish. They don't even need Jesus for salvation.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 1:28:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
However some would have you think that creation was/is/and will always be about Jews and the end times are all about the Jews.
You are absolutely right.
God did NOT choose a "nation."
He had a plan before creation and He
created a "nation" through Abraham to
play out that plan.
It's an awesome history lesson.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 1:33:21 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 462
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
However some would have you think that creation was/is/and will always be about Jews and the end times are all about the Jews.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
You are absolutely right.
God did NOT choose a "nation."
He had a plan before creation and He
created a "nation" through Abraham to
play out that plan.
It's an awesome history lesson.
And what does scripture say? It says we are all the children of promise that Abraham was told he would have if and only if we have the faith of Abraham. And who has the faith of Abraham? Those people of all nations who have faith in Jesus Christ. True born-again people.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/29/2008 4:59:28 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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LOL.
I think we're going down two different paths on this one.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 9/30/2008 3:33:21 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 397
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom Child4Jesus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Yeah what Jesus meant by Salvation is of the Jews is salvation comes through Him and He came to the world through a predominantly Jewish line. People however tend to forget that some of the key people in his line were gentile. Another thing people forget is that Abraham didn't start out Jewish.
I also agree that Israel (if you mean Jews) play a role. However everybody plays are role. We are in the end times now. I also agree that segments of the plan doesn't mean totality of the plan. However some would have you think that creation was/is/and will always be about Jews and the end times are all about the Jews.
A major problem in Christianity today is an almost obsession with Jews. It's almost fanatical. Jews/Israel (the nation) is held in such high regard and more important that everyone else. They can do no wrong. If you don't hold them in that high regard you are anti-Semitic. Some even think that Jews are saved by virtue of being Jewish. They don't even need Jesus for salvation.
There are a few problems with what you have said, and they entail your definitions of certain "holy" words that have been largely protected by the Gentile "Christian Church."
First, if by "salvation" you mean "rescue," then you're okay; HOWEVER, if you mean "forgiveness for one's sins," then you are misunderstanding the passage. Rescue belongs to the Jews! It was a promise to THEIR nation (Zech. 12-14; Isa. 35-66)! We who are Gentiles (Goyim) are NOT on even-keel with the Jews! Consider Paul's question in Rom. 3:1:
Rom. 3:1
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
KJV
Based on what you are saying, one might expect the answer to be, "NONE! There IS no advantage in being a Jew or profit in being circumcised." HOWEVER, how did Paul answer this question?
Rom. 3:2
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
KJV
After following some other paths of logic, he returns to this question and its answer in Rom. 9:1-12:
Rom. 9:1-12
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Paul's argument here is NOT "Jews are not special; believing Gentiles are also children of the promise"; the argument is "Jews ARE special, but fortunately believing Gentiles can be included!"
Consider:
Just because one is from the seed of Avraham does not mean that he or she is a child (of Avraham).
In Isaac shall they seed be called.
Verse 8 runs COUNTER to your conclusions! Note: "That is, They which are the children of the flesh (talking about Ishma'el as well as Avraham's other children), these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise (Isaac and his children) are counted for the seed." Then Paul further singles them out: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Thus, the children of Esau, the Edomites, were also not the children of God.
Then, it is true that from verse 24 through verse 33 of chapter 9, Paul does include the believing Goyim.
Then, chapter 10 of Romans is probably the most misunderstood and misused chapters in the whole Bible! Let's look at the first few verses:
Rom. 10:1-21
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
KJV
How many people have you heard use at least some of these verses as a part of the "Romans Road of Salvation?" BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT!
Allow me to paraphrase it into modern speech, keeping with the passages from the Old Testament that are quoted here:
Brothers (or rather, siblings),my heart's desire and my prayer to God for Isra'el is that they might be rescued! For I can attest to the fact that they have a fervor for God, but not backed up with knowledge. For they, being willingly ignoring of God's righteousness and going around to establish their own righteousness, have not humbled themselves to the righteousness of God. For the Messiah is the fulfillment of the Torah for righteousness to everyone who trusts. For Moses describes the righteousness which is from the Torah, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
However, the righteousness which is from trust speaks this way, "Don't say in your heart, 'Who shall ascend into the sky?' (Deut. 30:12) (that is, to force the Messiah down from above) nor, 'Who shall descend into the deep?' (Deut. 30:13) (that is, to raise the Messiah again from the dead.)" However, what DOES it say? "The message is close to you, even in your mouth, and in your heart:" (Deut. 30:14) that is, the message about trust, which we announce; That if you shall agree with your mouth that Yeshua` is the Master, and shall trust in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be rescued. For [it is] with the heart man trusts unto righteousness; and with the mouth agreement is made unto rescue. For the scripture says, "Whoever trusts in Him shall not be disillusioned." (Isa. 28:16) For there is no difference between the Jewish (language) and the Greek in this point: the same Master over everyone is rich to all who cry out to Him. For "whoever shall cry out unto the Name of YHVH shall be rescued." (Joel 2:32)
However, how can they cry out to Someone if they haven't trusted in him? And, how can they trust in Someone if they haven't heard about Him? And, how can they hear about Someone if no one is announcing Him? And how can people announce Him unless someone sends them? As the scripture puts it, "How beautiful (upon the mountains) are the (running) feet of those announcing good news about peace, bringing good news about good things, (announcing rescue, and saying to Zion, 'Your God reigns!')!" (Isa. 52:7)
The problem is that they haven't all paid attention to the good news and obeyed it. For Isaiah says, "YHVH, who has trusted what he has heard from us?" (Isa. 53:1) So, trust comes from what is reported, but the report comes through God's proclamation about the Messiah.
However, I ask, "Didn't they hear?" Of course! "The musical-line (of the skies, the expanse, days, and nights) went out into all the earth, and their proclamations into the very limits of the habitable world." (Ps. 19:4)
But, I ask, "Didn't Isra'el know?" First, Moshe said, "I will provoke you to jealousy over a nation; through a nation who doesn't have it together, I will anger you!" (Deut. 32:21) However, Yesha`yahu ventured away and said, "I was found by those not looking for me; I was made to shine in those who didn't inquire from me." (Isa. 65:1) However, to Isra'el he said, "I reached out my hands the whole day to a disobeying and contradicting people!" (Isa. 65:2)
Now, don't get me wrong; I still believe that God justifies individuals and allows the exchange to take place mentioned in II Cor. 5:21. "Salvation" is just the wrong word for it.
Retrobyter
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 10/21/2008 8:11:39 AM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 379
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
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Hi all,
Yep it is true, there have been really evil things done in the name of Christianity and in the name of Christ. I think that the reality is that those individuals who led evil armies in Christ's name never truly were of Christ and It's true to say that God is with a true believer, that places his trust in Christ and follows His example in his heart. This is a true Christian and someone who follows Christ, the holy spirit would convict them that actions like this are evil and not of Christ.
I do believe that God wil never leave Israel. But Israel will be brought to faith in the latter days, when the light of the Gentile church has almost gone out and it is hard to find the pure truth in her, THEN I believe we will see the eternal Gospel move back to Israel and them brought back to the olive vine. And believe me the richness of a believing Israel will proberbly outshine the gentile church.
Psalm 2 shows us how God deals with the world and on what basis. Through his Son, and the instruction to the world from God to both Jew and Gentile is to 'Kiss the Son' and Blessed are those that put their trust on Him.
God bless everyone.
Sonic
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 10/21/2008 10:35:48 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 397
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, SonicStudent!
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
Hi all,
Yep it is true, there have been really evil things done in the name of Christianity and in the name of Christ. I think that the reality is that those individuals who led evil armies in Christ's name never truly were of Christ and It's true to say that God is with a true believer, that places his trust in Christ and follows His example in his heart. This is a true Christian and someone who follows Christ, the holy spirit would convict them that actions like this are evil and not of Christ.
I do believe that God wil never leave Israel. But Israel will be brought to faith in the latter days, when the light of the Gentile church has almost gone out and it is hard to find the pure truth in her, THEN I believe we will see the eternal Gospel move back to Israel and them brought back to the olive vine. And believe me the richness of a believing Israel will proberbly outshine the gentile church.
Psalm 2 shows us how God deals with the world and on what basis. Through his Son, and the instruction to the world from God to both Jew and Gentile is to 'Kiss the Son' and Blessed are those that put their trust on Him.
God bless everyone.
Sonic
Well said! However, please allow me to encourage you on two points:
First, that God is already dealing with the Jews and bringing them to faith in THESE latter days, and
Second, that Psalm 2 makes best sense in the context of the Millennium, the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s literal and physical reign from Yerushalayim, Yisra'el.
There are two (at least) organizations that are instructing the Jews all over the world, especially those living in Yisra'el and Yerushalayim, about their own Messiah and how to trust in His finished work to provide God's justification and sanctification individually to the Jews (and to the Goyim or Gentiles, as well). The first is Jews for Jesus and the second is the Messianic Movement. Their individual messages to the Jews are these: Jews for Jesus basically says, "Jews can be grafted into their Olive Tree of God's Kingdom just as easily as can the Gentiles, easier in fact." The Messianic Movement basically says, "You don't have to be a 'Christian' (a term of fear, mistrust, and treachery to the Jews after all the Inquisitions, Pogroms, Purges, and the Holocaust of Europe and Asia); the Messiah Yeshua` was yours first, and you can trust Him and stay within your traditions and ritual practices and keeping of the Holy Days; in fact, trust in the Messiah Yeshua` will AUGMENT and SHED LIGHT ON all the rituals and Holy Days! He will COMPLETE your religious practices and EXPLAIN your traditions!"
Through these organizations, MILLIONS of Jews are becoming believers in Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Christ)! There are rallies just as big as any that Billy Graham has had being held all over the world! Wherever large populations of Jews can be found and where their governments will allow, Messianic meetings have been held and millions of Jews are coming to Yeshua` as both their Savior and their King! These ARE the "latter days!"
Second, Psalm 2: Let's look at the song:
Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.
KJV
Some will use the flowery speech of allegory and allusion to say this means that and attempt to explain away this prophecy by attempting to explain how all this could be applied to the "Church" and the heathen nations today, but the reason why they would have to apply all sorts of explanations and allegories to this passage is because they refuse to take it at face value. The truth is, however, that such jury riggings of the Scriptures are insufficient and unnecessary. All one has to do is drop the resistance and look at the passage in its literal interpretation.
Picture Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym (Jesus the Messiah of God) just coming into His own as haMelekh Yisra'el (the King of Isra'el), destined to soon be haMelekh M'lakhim (the King of Kings or World Emperor). He has just finished the Battle of Har-Megiddown (Greek: Armageddon), the Mountain of Megiddo north-northwest of Yerushalayim, Yisra'el, and He sits in judgment on the all the nations that came to the battle against Yisra'el, some to help Yisra'el, others killing, raping, plundering, and pillaging HIS nation. Some who would NEVER submit to His rule and have mistreated His kinsmen He has destroyed, others who DO submit and have treated His kinsmen well, He has made vassal states within His realm. He will treat them well, but they are no longer allowed to rule themselves without His leave and His input. How do you suppose that fact will sit in their minds?
Now, let's go to a UN meeting in which these nations have representatives attempting to level their complaints against the new King of Isra'el and encourage one another to stand up to Him:
1 Why do the heathen (Goyim or Gentiles or non-Jewish people) rage, and the people (of Isra'el) imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers (subordinates of the King) take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (Messiah), saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. (Let's throw off their yoke of bondage!)
Suddenly, they hear a loud, menacing laugh!
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
They are VERY afraid, not knowing where the voice is coming from or who it is who laughs! Now, the voice speaks:
6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion!"
Then, GOD continues, carefully spelling out for them His rules:
7 "I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen (Goyim or Gentiles or non-Jewish Nations) for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod (sceptre) of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.> '
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling!
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little!"
How do you think they will leave that meeting?! They'll come out of there with a new respect for haMelekh Yisra'el and for the VERY REAL God who audibly speaks on His Son's behalf!
Now, I know that Psalm 2 was quoted in Acts 4:25-26, but in context, it is a PRELUDE of things to come! The disciples did not use this instance as a fulfillment of this prophecy; they were merely saying that its fulfillment was already starting! They could already see it on the horizon.
Acts 4:21-31
21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
22 For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.
23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
KJV
So, the Scripture will be fulfilled, including the laughter and the repeating of the decree.
So, God is already dealing with the Jews and bringing them to faith in THESE latter days, and Psalm 2 will be literally fulfilled in the Millennium, the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s literal and physical reign from Yerushalayim, Yisra'el.
Have a great day!
Retrobyter
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RE: All Israel Thread - - - End Times Prophecy? - 10/21/2008 5:21:17 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 379
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline
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Hi Retrobyter and thanks for your comments on this.
I too believe that the final fulfilment of this Psalm song will be at the end, when all nations gather to create a world order and unified religious system that rejects God's truth and God's king. I also believe that the Psalm speaks to every nation and every leader throughout the ages in regard to God's truth, law and salvation system, ie Christ as God's only plan for salvation, and God's only trusted king.
In regard to the literal and final conclusion of this Psalm, God's punishment of the rebellious unified nations of the earth at the end will indeed see Christ return to rule those nations and put their plans in the dust, as they are not based on truth, but are a lie, and we'll see the 1,000 year rule begin.
I don't personally believe that the laugh needs to be literally fulfilled, but hey, maybe, who knows, and if He does, COOL!
Take care my friend
Sonic.
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