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1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 1:13:06 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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The Bible says "They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2;19)
This verse talks about people professing to be Christains, they end up not staying with the Lord.
This bugs me in the way that I thought in Christ, we are secure, God has the power to keep us and not lose us,, (based on other verses) ,, I do believe we are secure in our salvation in Christ, "preservation of the saints". EXCEPT THIS VERSE COMES ALONG AND PULLS THE RUG OUT FROM UNDER ME. now i am no longer secure and relaxed to just relax in Christ.
On some days when you just dont feel that connection with the Lord, (we all have those days), I get scared that if im starting to get cold, I think about that verse, and then i think "ok there goes my doctrine of eternal security!!!! coz maybe im that verse.
this verse seems to kick out the security that the doctrine of eternal security is supposed to make you feel secure. coz this verse could knock you outta the christian park if your not really saved and are just a professing Christian.
This verse worries me! I either have eternal security or else this verse tells me if i start to fall away, I was never saved. So there goes my feeling of eternal security, thanks to this verse.
So where can we find any security in Christ, if this verse is there.. coz maybe just maybe we are going to end up in that verse, if we start to drift away... how do we know that our drifting and/or getting cold or what they say "dont listen to your feelings",, how do you know if your relaly in Christ, ok, but just a little cold and then really doing that verse? i dont know if you can understand what im worried about.
well i keep going thru these transitions and trials and valleys, and its then that I start to worry that I might be in that 1 John 2:19 verse.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 1:41:56 PM
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LCannon
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Actually, 'they' weren't ever Christians in the first place they were converts or born into Judaism, culturally or trying to be what they weren't by 'birthright'. 2John 1:9-11 speaks to this issue, too.
Romans 9:6-"However, the covenant failed in pride of birthright for they are not all Israel’s inheritance 7 nor they are children just because of Abraham's offspring [for] through Sarah, Isaac was born as a promise. 8 Remember, Isaac shared his heritage with flesh but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants 9 for, "the time will come and Sarah shall bear a son of promise in her old age.” 10 Likewise Rebekah, when she conceived twins by the same promise 11 and, while they hadn’t even had the opportunity to choose their paths, God's destiny for personal obedience was the purpose of their lives. 12 It was prophesied, "the older will serve the younger." 13 for Esau dismissed his birthright of righteousness while Jacob embraced his destiny."
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 2:05:50 PM
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URForgiven
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They were professors, not possessors.
There are many who profess to be Christians, but few who who actually possess that which is necessary to truly be a Christian, and that is Jesus Christ Himself.
Salvation is the receiving of life, eternal life, and that life is in our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ...
1 John 5:12
"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
If you have received Christ, then you have received life, His life, eternal life. That is a present reality, not just a hope for the future. God cannot lie, if He says He has given you eternal life, you can believe it.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 3:13:26 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
This bugs me in the way that I thought in Christ, we are secure, God has the power to keep us and not lose us,, (based on other verses) ,,
Did he ever have the folks you are speaking about. Jesus says;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So evidently folks that continue to work iniquity (lawlessness, sin) after they claim they are saved; just are not saved.
The Apostle John joins in this refrain with;
(1Jn 3:6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(1Jn 3:7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
So I rekon that folks that live like hell will get there soon enough.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:15:46 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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well how can we have eternal security when this happens when the thing happening in your life you cant tell if its you are just a professing fake christian or if your just in the valley? when your in the valley you feel like your far away from God.
i mean, what is the next test you do to yourself to see if you are just a professing christian faker, or that your just in the valley? what is the next thing(s) that happen to make you go either way.. (these are two opposite directions).
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:22:48 PM
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Lapidoth
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There are three stages to our complete salvation.
1. We "were saved" from the penalty of sin. [past tense] Romans 6:23
2. We "are being saved" from the power of sin. [present tense] Mt. 1:21; Rom. 6:14; Rev. 12:11
3. We "will be saved" from the presence of sin. [future tense] I Peter 1:3-5; Rom. 16:20
There are other verses such as "he who endures to the end shall be saved."
It's the doctrines of men that cause us so much concern.
Only God can give us calvinism and arminism at the same time. LOL.
Man is the one who came up with these two opposing doctrines.
We are given the "earnest" of salvation when we are saved.
The penalty of sin is death. "For the wages of sin is death."
Jesus paid the penalty of sin. Yet, we still live in a fallen body.
We are subject to temptations and often we fall. Yet, we get back up and keep going.
We will receive the complete salvation when we take off this garment (flesh) and
put on the new garment (transformed body). We will be like Jesus.
Hope that helps.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:29:19 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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i dont feel very christianlike right now :(
that verse scares me
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:30:05 PM
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Lapidoth
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I like Galatians 1:6-9
Paul marvels that we are so soon removed from the one that called us.
"Unto another gospel, which is not another, but a perverted gospel.
Each denomination think they have THE gospel, yet we may have
a perverted and/or part perverted gospel.
The gospel is that we can not pay for sin,
Jesus did, and He rose again and was seen by many.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:31:19 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
i dont feel very christianlike right now :(
that verse scares me
Romans 8:1
There is now therefore no condemnation.
You're alright, feelings don't determine our destination.
The blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony does.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:32:59 PM
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Lapidoth
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I'd have to examine it again in context, but if my memory
serves me, that may be the Judaisers Paul had so much trouble with.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:36:12 PM
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Lapidoth
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Here's that same verse from the Power New Testament:
I John 2:19
They went out from us but were not really of us:
but so that they would be revealed because they all
are not of us.
quote:
NLT version:
1 John 2
2:19
These people left our churches because they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left us, it proved that they do not belong with us.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 4:51:13 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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well im at a crossroads. i was walking to work today feeling like im drifting off. or im just in the valley.. but... i thought if i dont catch ahold of myself, and i let myself go off, then that means this verse applies to me .. that i was never a christian.
and that all thsse past three years were just a farce.
thats what im afraid of.
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 5:06:26 PM
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Lapidoth
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When I have bouts like that I hold onto I John 1:9.
If I have sinned that God would forgive me,
and that He would cleanse me of any unrighteousness.
The Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are a child of God.
It's that witness that verifies our relationship. Not our feelings.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 5:14:42 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
well how can we have eternal security when this happens when the thing happening in your life you cant tell if its you are just a professing fake christian or if your just in the valley? when your in the valley you feel like your far away from God.
i mean, what is the next test you do to yourself to see if you are just a professing christian faker, or that your just in the valley? what is the next thing(s) that happen to make you go either way.. (these are two opposite directions).
As Christians, we do not live by our feelings, we live by faith in Jesus Christ. He is the object of our faith, and in Him is power and truth and forgiveness and eternal life. You have eternal security when you have Jesus Christ.
You know you have Him or not, because He has given you His Spirit or not. If you have His Spirit within you, you will not need to guess about it...you will know. (Romans 8:16)
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/3/2008 11:52:31 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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yes, and as i was walking to the train this morning, i catch myself and say, uhhh i feel like im drifting, i wonder if maybe that 1 John verse applies to me.
I try to talk reasonable to myself and say the Lord promises never to leave us or forsake us, and i tell the Lord to hold onto me, coz i feel like im falling.
I figure, if i dont keep on floating offf, and if the Lord catches me, then that means im securely saved. but if i keep drifting more than a day, then that could be i was never a christian.
i have to stand on the promises of the Bible.
You know these verses do trouble christians. the ones about committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and the one in Hebrews where it talks about people who think theya re christian and drift off, and become apostate, it is impossible to renew them again to repentence.
and the verses that told about Esau, how when he realized he sold his birthright, he saught forgivenss with tears, but he couldn't get forgiveness, though he sought it with tears.
and the verse about not making shipwreck of your faith.
and the verse about test yourself to see if your in the faith.
and the verse that says making your calling and election sure.
and the verse that says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
God put those verses in the Bible for us to think about and not neglect.
oh yeah, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
you see? SCARY!!!! (((maybe since i realize the awefulness, that proves i am saved, coz woudln't i be hard hearted and not care if i was lost??????????
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/4/2008 12:16:19 AM
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Ps103
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Reading the Psalms is good for times like these, Mary.
Psalm 51 speaks to this, at least to me.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/4/2008 12:57:51 AM
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LCannon
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quote:
...since I realize the awefulness that proves I am saved, coz woudln't I be hard and not care...
If you remained hardened to the point complacency or bitter why would you even care? Often we dwell too much on our lack of obedience to the point of robbing us from the joy and richness His obedience. Repent quickly from our confessions and come into again the glory of our obedience!
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/4/2008 8:47:50 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Romans 8:1
There is now therefore no condemnation.
You're alright, feelings don't determine our destination.
The blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony does.
Just have to add the rest of that verse because it shows the conditionality of the "No condemnatioon" part;
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Yes there is no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit, but it is a different matter for those who walk after the flesh.
Being certain of one's salvation is commanded here;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
This was of course written to folks who thought they were saved, now how serious is this;
(Php 2:12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
So we are to examine ourselves.
Is the following passage this description of a saved person's life, both inside and outward;
(Gal 5:22,23) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
If one's examination falls short of this; then it is time (actually past time) to get before God and fix the problem.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/4/2008 8:58:07 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
well im at a crossroads. i was walking to work today feeling like im drifting off. or im just in the valley.. but... i thought if i dont catch ahold of myself, and i let myself go off, then that means this verse applies to me .. that i was never a christian.
and that all thsse past three years were just a farce.
thats what im afraid of.
Remember, Satan is an acuser and a liar.
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/5/2008 11:41:35 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1396
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From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
well how can we have eternal security when this happens when the thing happening in your life you cant tell if its you are just a professing fake christian or if your just in the valley? when your in the valley you feel like your far away from God.
i mean, what is the next test you do to yourself to see if you are just a professing christian faker, or that your just in the valley? what is the next thing(s) that happen to make you go either way.. (these are two opposite directions).
There's a simple solution if you are not sure. First ask yourself do you believe Jesus is who He said he is? and if your answer is yes ... look at what He says you need to do to be His child ...
Believe in your heart that He is the Son of God and confess with your mouth. You don't have to worry about past sins ... He promises to forget them as far as the East is from the West.
It's as simple as coming to Him, just the two of you, and saying, "Lord, I do not know for sure if these last years were just my imagination ... or if I truly am your child ... but I wan t to be sure ..."
Then in your time with Him, confess anything that you believe may be separating you from the Father .... any sin, or unbelief, any task or thought that may be in the way ... He already knows about it but wants you to see it and confess it because it shows that you realize you cannot do it without Him. Now, assuming that you believe that Jesus is who He says He is ... just tell Him you want to be His child ... thank Him for forgiving you and taking the punishment for you.
Then simply believe Him ... in Ephesians 1:13 Paul writes, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory." When you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, you become His. The enemy may tell you otherwise, but He is a liar attempting to steal your peace.
Paul says in Philippians 4:4-7, "Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
I pray as you come to Him with your requests ... that His peace will envelope you with an amazing assurance of His love for you. That you will learn to rest in Him, and to abide in Him ... learning to hear His voice when He whispers to you in the depths of your heart ... and you will learn to obey Him, knowing that as you obey, He has something wonderful, beyond anything you could possibly ask or imagine, for you hidden in His plans for you in this life He has given you. Plans that are good and not evil, plans for a hope and a future.
Speaking of Valleys ... I was in a very deep one ... both my Dad and brother passed away w/in 3 days of each other, I was laid off and suffered some tremendous financial hardships in the midst of it all ... in my heart of hearts I heard, "In the Valley of Trouble, you will find a door of hope." I was reminded of Hosea 2:15 ... it says, "There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor [which means trouble] a door of hope." He promises a door of hope in our Valley of Trouble ... the Valley spoken of in Hosea was one that came about because of Israel's sin, but that hope is as real for our self imposed valleys as it is for those valleys we find ourselves in through no fault of our own. We may not see it right away ... it may take much longer than we expected ... but God is always faithful, even when we are not faithful.
So go spend some time with Him ... poor out your heart to Him ... and trust that He loves you more dearly than you could possibly imagine ... and is there listening to your every word ... holding you in His heart, faithfully guiding your steps ...
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/5/2008 11:48:30 PM
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Psalms274
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In regards to disobedience that you mentioned in a later post ...
He does give us a choice on whether we choose the steps He shows us (and He is clear about the direction we are to take ... if you are unsure, wait until you are certain). We are responsible for our actions when we choose to go another way ... and those times of disobedience can be very painful times ... but those valleys do not mean you were never His ... or that you are not His ... they are a result of our own stubbornness (I am speaking about the valleys that come as a result of clear, deliberate disobedience), Hebrews tells us He disciplines those He loves. The book of Hosea talks about how God woos back the ones who disobeyed Him in the worse kind of way, bringing them back into the Valley of Anchor (trouble), stripping away everything from her, and then becoming everything to her. Even when we walk in disobedience, He still pursues with a love indescribable to make you His in a way you weren't before. (not meaning you were not His to begin with, but meaning He will draw you closer than you thought was possible.)
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/6/2008 4:48:33 PM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
So go spend some time with Him ... poor out your heart to Him ... and trust that He loves you more dearly than you could possibly imagine ...
Amen.
And, good post RC.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/6/2008 6:18:47 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
This was of course written to folks who thought they were saved, now how serious is this;
RCJames,
Just so I don't mistake what you are saying, I will not presume. But you appear to be out of context. It is NOT talking about people who, sinning, would were erroneously thinking they were saved when they probably weren't. Paul was not questioning their salvation per se. He was questioning the logic of their challenge to his authority. (Something he took them to task for more than once in 1 Cor and 2 Cor)
It is about people who were undermining the basis their own faith by questioning Paul's authority of apostleship. They believed Paul's message and thereby became Christians. By questioning Paul's authority, they implicitly questioned the message they had already received--a logical contradiction.
Examining ourselves is certainly biblical, i.e. 1 Christians 11.
BTW, 1 John 2:19 says nothing about people who were once saved but then lost their salvation. It is not an eternal security verse. All indications about it were that they never were believers in the first place.
The NASB reads: "...but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us...they went out, in order that it might be shown that they were not all of us." emphasis mine
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/6/2008 6:26:54 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: 1 JOHN 2:19 - 10/6/2008 11:07:24 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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Hi - thanks you all.... I'm still here. I tell the Lord every day I dont want to leave Him nor forsake him. today i remembered the words of Polycarp - "86 years that I have served my King, who has done nothing to me, why should i now betray Him" (i hope i got the quote right).
sunday i just stayed home and took a break from church, i really didn't do much but watch a live service on Sunday a.m. on the internet....and then at night i watched the movie Jesus of Nazareth. I was more inspired watching that movie..
anyhoo, I gotta remember that God is faithful and someone else said that we did not do anything to save us, and we dont have the power to keep us, but God does.
Anyway one good thing i discovered was that staying home on Sunday was not the same as being in church.. it felt like something is missing. I have not missed a sunday in a year except when i had the flu and couldn't make the drive.
but i also feel such freedom.. in getting away from there and/or my usual schedule that is a bit burdensome.
this week as i was searching some neighborhood churches, a lot of them seemed promising, so im going to go on an adventure and visit every one that i wish. Maybe God had me there parked at my other church and now time to move on, or maybe not.
I have to tell them first before i slip away quietly to remove my name, address & phone number from that thing they published on the internet. :(
oh one good thing! God always gives me a song - this one is real purty - "Near the Cross" .. ooo the words maybe just what is needed "Jesus keep me near the cross, .. etc. etc.." its beautiful if you want to hear it on You Tube or something.
< Message edited by IMA_CHRISTIAN -- 10/6/2008 11:14:36 PM >
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