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"Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 8:40:47 AM
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Little_1
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"Is it necessary to agree...... all of the time about every doctrine and theology?"
There are many Christian Minister, Pastors, authors, etc who I may not agree with 100% (or even 25% of the time) regarding their theology or doctrines (as I'm sure is the case with most of us); however, my question is - do you believe this is good enough reason not to listen to or read what they have to say the rest of the time which is good and relevant? Or do you prefer to totally avoid any such people and switch them off?
I'll be honest, there are some pastors/ministers I see on TV who have some strange things to say and at other times, they have good, solid teaching. I do tend to avoid such most of the time even though sometimes they may have a good subject matter which is sound. Do you think I am being too cautious?
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 7/26/2008 9:10:00 AM >
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 9:20:32 AM
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rcjames
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In my opinion, if someone teaches error, then they are a false teacher. Even if once in a while they might get it correct.
Though of us who are really grounded in the Word and our doctrines solid might be able to separate the truth from the fiction when we listen, but why should we listen to false teaching in the hope of hearing something that is not false.
The real danger is for folks who are not grounded such as newer or unlearned Believers who do not know the Word sufficiently enough to sort out the good from the bad. They are easily led astray by the teachings that sound good and reasonable even though they may be pure heresy.
Now all prachers will make a mistake at times, but when the premise of the teaching they are giving is false; then they are false teachers.
I have preached over 7000 sermons in my life and I guarentee that I have mispoke at times, it just happens, but when it is brought to my attention either by the Holy Spirit or someone who heard the teaching; I correct it immediatly.
As to agreeing on all things; I do not think that is nescessary, but agreeing on things salvic is most important.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 9:27:07 AM
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makarizo
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this is a very good thing for you to do, and it can be very educational and enlightening.
if a "Christian pastor" is associated with the Lutheran church, I need to know that that means. I need to identify (the basics of ) what makes a Lutheran different from the way I believe.
or an apostolic, or a catholic, or a baptist...... and so on.
understanding the differences is the key finding basic similarities.
ultimately it always leads you straight to the bible. (to find out)
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 10:22:03 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
this is a very good thing for you to do, and it can be very educational and enlightening.
if a "Christian pastor" is associated with the Lutheran church, I need to know that that means. I need to identify (the basics of ) what makes a Lutheran different from the way I believe.
or an apostolic, or a catholic, or a baptist...... and so on.
understanding the differences is the key finding basic similarities.
ultimately it always leads you straight to the bible. (to find out)
Even knowing the denominational affiliation of a pastor is no longer a guarantee of their doctrinal beliefs, a quick look at the controversies that are raging in some previously solid denomination tells us that.
But I do agree that ultimately the standard for doctrine is always the Bible.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 10:36:11 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
"Is it necessary to agree...... all of the time about every doctrine and theology?"
There are many Christian Minister, Pastors, authors, etc who I may not agree with 100% (or even 25% of the time) regarding their theology or doctrines (as I'm sure is the case with most of us); however, my question is - do you believe this is good enough reason not to listen to or read what they have to say the rest of the time which is good and relevant? Or do you prefer to totally avoid any such people and switch them off?
I'll be honest, there are some pastors/ministers I see on TV who have some strange things to say and at other times, they have good, solid teaching. I do tend to avoid such most of the time even though sometimes they may have a good subject matter which is sound. Do you think I am being too cautious?
If the basics of orthodoxy are met, then I need not agree on the details...how often communion is to be served, type of worship music, formality of the liturgy, eschatology (end times theology, millennial, amillennial, pre, post, or mid tribulation rapture) there is freedom there to agree or disagree.
But if the Christ they preach is not the Christ of scripture, or if their teaching runs counter to clear scripture, then the alarm flags should start flying high.
In Essentials, Unity - In Non-Essentials, Liberty - In All Things, Charity (Augustine of Hippo)
The "trick" is to determine what the essentials truly are too narrow and you cause unnecessary divisions in the Body of Christ, too wide and you run the risk of embracing heresy.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 11:00:53 AM
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mvic
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I believe that one's relationship with God/Jesus is personal and should be based on the Bible.
There are many times when I disagree with preachers, pastors and priests. The Lord knows, I've even disagreed with people far cleverer than me on this Forum.
At the end of the day, I test what they say with reference to the Bible. I pray about it. And if I'm listening carefully sometimes God gives me the answer.
For example: not so long ago a senior cleric in the UK suggested that we should not take the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection too literally.
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http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 11:47:05 AM
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LCannon
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'I know I have errors in my theology, the problem is, I don't know where. If I knew I would correct them.'(John Macarther) If I persist in fostering error(and know I'm fostering an error)I'm a false teacher however when I recognize my error out of tradition or inconsistency with the truth of Scripture I have the responsibility to grow out of my limited imagination.
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"Many of our prayers are for an easy solution. God is more glorifed in Him
when souls exhibit His Grace under pressure." -Elisabeth Elliot-
"But at my stumbling they gathered in glee...[but]How long, O Lord,
wilt thou look on?" -Psalms 35:15-
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 11:48:35 AM
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Little_1
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Thanks everyone who has responded up to this point. The reason I asked this question came as the result of hearing a preacher say that he listens to what certain Jewish friends have to say because he says he has a lot to learn from their culture. He does not necessarily hold to their beliefs but he said that his friends have a lot to teach him concerning their culture and traditions. I have to agree with what he said and am sure this preacher's Jewish friends do have a wealth of good information to share concerning the OT, their culture and traditions which would help us to understand the Bible in more depth but this also fired up questions about those whom I don't always agree with in the Christian church and yet who on occasions do have something relevant or helpful to say.
I can see the dangers of young Christians being led astray. I can also see the danger in older Christians (who are not grounded very well in God's Word) being led astray also by incorrect 'Christian' teaching. However, if I found something that was good teaching in someone who is not what I would call solid as a pound, I'm not so sure I would disregard it.
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 11:51:13 AM
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Focusing
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
"Is it necessary to agree...... all of the time about every doctrine and theology?"
No. Always turn to the Bible for confirmation ... whether it's to confirm that what they are saying is the truth, or to confirm that what they are saying isn't the truth.
A good pastor, imo, will tell you to go to the Bible, study what he is preaching/teaching on, and encourage you to learn more.
_____________________________
<-- the prelude to a summer dust storm
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 12:18:30 PM
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timf
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"Is it necessary to agree...... ?
RC does a good job of describing the traditional church perspective. It elevates doctrine and promotes the denominational systems that flow from doctrinal differences. It also elevates important men as leaders and places an emphasis on your compliance to their regulations (ie. Galatians). It leads to a level pride and self-righteousness often found found among those who think they are fighting for God against evil (like Muslims and the Pharisees).
The Bible paints a different picture of dealing with error than the condemnation of those with different doctrines. The Bible tells us that Jesus is truth and we can suppose that closeness to Him provides protection from error by proximity to truth.
John 8:31-33 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
Freedom from the potential harm of error comes from Christ in us. The object of our religion should be for Christ to be formed in us. We are to grow to the full measure of Christ.
The elevation of pastors as super Christians is just a repetition of the same error that gave us the priestly class of the Roman Catholic church. God wants Christ to be formed in us. God is not interested in our consumer choice of what great Christian leader we have decided to follow.
Your closeness to and familiarity with Jesus and His word allows you to judge what you see and hear as true or not. Picking a particular pastor, denomination, or set of teachings or rules to follow often leads to the type of Pharisetical blindness that Jesus warned his disciples of. If we elevate anything over Jesus as true, this is the danger we run.
Take truth from wherever you find it. As we all grow closer to Jesus, we also grow in truth.
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 12:46:57 PM
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Walker311
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I know that we can learn much from imperfect people but when it comes to my spirituality, you better be as near perfection as can be in what you teach.
I will not allow myself to eat something that is questionable in how it will affect my body. It is the same with my soul.
I don't have the time or the tenacity to weed through questionable preaching or teaching and just hang onto the "good stuff". If you preach or teach one bad thing, I'm done!
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:02:08 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
......Your closeness to and familiarity with Jesus and His word allows you to judge what you see and hear as true or not. Picking a particular pastor, denomination, or set of teachings or rules to follow often leads to the type of Pharisetical blindness that Jesus warned his disciples of. If we elevate anything over Jesus as true, this is the danger we run.
Take truth from wherever you find it. As we all grow closer to Jesus, we also grow in truth.
Good points.
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:06:34 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Walker311
I know that we can learn much from imperfect people but when it comes to my spirituality, you better be as near perfection as can be in what you teach.
I will not allow myself to eat something that is questionable in how it will affect my body. It is the same with my soul.
I don't have the time or the tenacity to weed through questionable preaching or teaching and just hang onto the "good stuff". If you preach or teach one bad thing, I'm done!
Thanks for your honest reaction to the OP Walker but does this ruling out also include a pastor who doesn't normally teach in contradiction to the Word of God but one time errs? What if he realises this and makes amends or what if he doesn't realise his error? Is he really forever written off in your estimation?
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:12:01 PM
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Little_1
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Here is another question to put to you along with the OP?
Do we pray for those who err in preaching? I'll be honest - most of the time I don't. Having posted this thread however, I believe the Lord wants me to do so. Anyone else feel the same way?
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:13:03 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
The Bible paints a different picture of dealing with error than the condemnation of those with different doctrines. The Bible tells us that Jesus is truth and we can suppose that closeness to Him provides protection from error by proximity to truth.
Here is the Biblical picture of dealing with different dictrines;
(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Bible says that those who bring a different Gospel are to be "Accursed".
So don't condemn then; "Curse" them.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:15:22 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
The Bible paints a different picture of dealing with error than the condemnation of those with different doctrines. The Bible tells us that Jesus is truth and we can suppose that closeness to Him provides protection from error by proximity to truth.
Here is the Biblical picture of dealing with different dictrines;
(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Bible says that those who bring a different Gospel are to be "Accursed".
So don't condemn then; "Curse" them.
Thanks
RC
Thanks RC but don't you think the Lord is meaning those who deliberately bring false teaching from the texts you refer to above? There are Christians who would be horrified if they realised they had brought anything to their congregations which was not absolute truth. However, it happens to even the most genuine preacher. You confessed to this yourself in an earlier post on this thread:
quote:
ORGINAL -- RC
"I have preached over 7000 sermons in my life and I guarentee that I have mispoke at times, it just happens, but when it is brought to my attention either by the Holy Spirit or someone who heard the teaching; I correct it immediatly."
Does this mean you were cursed by God - I think not. You have taken the above texts out of their original context you will be pleased to know.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 7/26/2008 1:23:46 PM >
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:24:11 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
Thanks RC. Don't you think the Lord is meaning those who deliberately bring false teaching? There are Christians who would be horrified if they realised they had brought anything to their congregations which was not truth. However, it happens to even the most genuine. You confessed to this yourself in an earlier post on this thread.
I think Paul is addressing doctrine here, whether it is from a false teacher or a dumb teacher; the theaching of the doctrine is what matters.
The mistakes hat I have made have not as yer risen to the level of "Another doctrine", just mis-speaking (acutally mis-quoting) a verse or errors such as that.
The biggest mistake was when I was a new preacher (45 years ago) and preached what I had heard and not what I had read. It was concerning "Jesus went to hell and took the keys of hell and death away from the devil". The Holy Spirit stopped me about 2 sentances later by breinging to my mind the error I had just said. I apoligized to the congregation, retracted the statement as conjecture and not Scripture, and continued on.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:30:22 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
Thanks RC. Don't you think the Lord is meaning those who deliberately bring false teaching? There are Christians who would be horrified if they realised they had brought anything to their congregations which was not truth. However, it happens to even the most genuine. You confessed to this yourself in an earlier post on this thread.
I think Paul is addressing doctrine here, whether it is from a false teacher or a dumb teacher; the theaching of the doctrine is what matters.
The mistakes hat I have made have not as yer risen to the level of "Another doctrine", just mis-speaking (acutally mis-quoting) a verse or errors such as that.
The biggest mistake was when I was a new preacher (45 years ago) and preached what I had heard and not what I had read. It was concerning "Jesus went to hell and took the keys of hell and death away from the devil". The Holy Spirit stopped me about 2 sentances later by breinging to my mind the error I had just said. I apoligized to the congregation, retracted the statement as conjecture and not Scripture, and continued on.
Thanks
RC
I know of some godly ministers who have made genuine errors in doctrine. They have since retracted their original teaching wherever possible. I still believe the texts you quoted were more to do with false teachers who were deliberately trying to pervert the message of the Gospel so we may have to respectfully have to agree to disagree regarding this one; however that is not to say I don't appreciate hearing your standing on this issue.
Little_1
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 1:49:26 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 782
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
The Bible paints a different picture of dealing with error than the condemnation of those with different doctrines. The Bible tells us that Jesus is truth and we can suppose that closeness to Him provides protection from error by proximity to truth.
Here is the Biblical picture of dealing with different dictrines;
(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Bible says that those who bring a different Gospel are to be "Accursed".
So don't condemn then; "Curse" them.
Thanks
RC
I could not agree with you more RC, anyone who preaches a gospel that relies on human effort should be cursed...
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Galatians 3:1-5
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 2:28:23 PM
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Walker311
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If someone in a position of leadership or authority errs and makes this known and then makes corrections, then no problem.
However, we should never excuse errors or false info yet cling to what we agree with from anyone. While most Christians are gleaners of truth, all eventually will get burned if they continue to glean from attractive deliverers of the mix of truth/untruths.
This is in keeping with all principles in life as to right and wrong. You hang out with the wrong crowd, you eventually get in trouble. You put off repairing your car, you end up stranded or dead. You neglect to teach you children correctly and they will cause great strife.
Jimmy Swaggert messed up. There was discipline sent forth by AOG that he rejected. I was done with him. He then messed up again. I will still occasionally listen to his tv show music section but not to his preaching.
1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.
In my opinion, anyone knowingly teaching/preaching erroneously are evil.
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 4:30:33 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 937
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Walker311
......In my opinion, anyone knowingly teaching/preaching erroneously are evil.
I agree.
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 4:36:03 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 937
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
The Bible paints a different picture of dealing with error than the condemnation of those with different doctrines. The Bible tells us that Jesus is truth and we can suppose that closeness to Him provides protection from error by proximity to truth.
Here is the Biblical picture of dealing with different doctrinal;
(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The Bible says that those who bring a different Gospel are to be "Accursed".
So don't condemn then; "Curse" them.
Thanks
RC
......anyone who preaches a gospel that relies on human effort should be cursed......
URF - many preachers who know the Lord sometimes preach in their own steam. I don't know if I would say they deserve to be cursed however! Have you ever posted on site here without praying first? Being honest - I have. I would say this perhaps could be termed as using God's Word in my own steam. I believe many people on site could be guilty of such. Does this mean we are to be cursed? If I was deliberately spreading false doctrine - Yes I would definately agree I should be cursed then. However, it makes me think that I should pray before posting in future so that it is not in my own steam I am posting.  I want to please the Lord and walk in His Spirit. Thank you for your reply. Also, thanks to everyone else who posted the passage Galatians 3:1-5. It proves to me that God's Word is alive and active, sharper than a double-edged sword......
Little_1
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 7/26/2008 4:47:27 PM >
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 6:59:40 PM
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SonInMe1
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I see these verses used time and time again but it truth all they support is the fat there is absolute truth. They do not support any specific truth.
If I was a satanist I could use these scriptures to support my doctrine.
I agree with timf. Super pastors are not only unbiblical, they are dangerous.
Slight doctrinal differences does not make one a false prophet and those who are promoting it does are not biblical. Paul said minor differences are not that big of a deal. Saying minor doctrinal differences IS a big deal is probably more a sign of a false prophet than any other thing.
My way or the highway preaching is hereitical for this reason...NOONE has perfect doctrine. While the basic christian principles must be present to be considered christian..and saved....the rest is up for some interpretation.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: "Is it necessary to agree...... ? - 7/26/2008 7:50:09 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 782
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: timf
The Bible paints a different picture of dealing with error than the condemnation of those with different doctrines. The Bible tells us that Jesus is truth and we can suppose that closeness to Him provides protection from error by proximity to truth.
Here is the Biblical picture of dealing with different doctrinal;
(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let hi | | |
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